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Author Topic: Grain direction in sheeted wings  (Read 2710 times)

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Grain direction in sheeted wings
« on: June 12, 2010, 09:12:51 PM »
Ok, quick question: I'm getting ready to cut out the skins for the foam wing of my latest world-beater. Do I cut them so the grain is parallel to the leading edge or the trailing edge? I'm guessing the leading edge but it's been awile since I made a sheeted foam wing.  8)
Pete Cunha
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 10:51:59 PM »
I don't think it makes a huge difference, Pete. But if it helps, the sheeting on my Chipmunk and Mustang are parallel to the trailing edge. It was just easier to line them up that way.

The wings are still on both planes. #^
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 08:36:03 AM »
Thanks Clint, that sounds 'bout right. That would keep the grain parallel to the curve in the airfoil and straight with the thinnest portioin of the wing (the TE), possilby adding a little warp resistance. But as you mentioned, not a big deal, I'm probablly just tripping over mouse droppings here. Hope all is well in NorCal.  8)
Pete Cunha
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Offline Don Curry AMA 267060

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 09:23:04 AM »

the way we do it with our r/c patern planes is both parallel to the leading edge and trailing edge with a triangle in the center sheeting.
Don

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 01:55:09 PM »
You can make the grain parrallel to both edges by putting a tapered piece in between the two edge pieces, you will have to put a tepered piece somewhere..
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 04:14:33 PM »
You can make the grain parrallel to both edges by putting a tapered piece in between the two edge pieces, you will have to put a tepered piece somewhere..

No you don't.
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Offline sleepy gomez

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 04:34:32 PM »
I believe the best way to align the grain is to make it perpendicular to the spar.  This would maybe be the most difficult way.

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 08:34:52 PM »
Sleepy,

"Perpendicular to the spar?" As I understand things, that means with grain running from leading edge to trailing edge... roughly parallel to the fuselage centerline? I don't think that is a good structural arrangement, and it would require bending the sheeting against its strength. Sheet 'wraps' easier the other way, grain spanwise.

I've heard it recommended to apply the sheeting with grain parallel to the leading edge, which makes sense because the greatest curvature of the airfoil section is forward.

If the panel has much taper, it might be good to join sheeting so that the front piece grain is parallel to the LE out to the full tip chord. If that piece is cut the  same width at the root as at the tip, a tapered piece could be joined to it to complete the full chord from root to tip. This added piece would have grain running parallel to the trailing edge.  (Wing structure TE, ahead of the flap hingeline, is most often a straight line at right angles to the fuselage centerline. Some designs have swept forward flap hingelines...)   The aft piece would, obviously, taper to zero width at the tip.

Joining these pieces can be done smoothly and accurately before mounting the sheeting to the foam panels.  A miss of 1/8" or so wouldn't compromise strength. Doing it this way provides the same strength advantage for the aft part of the wing as having the grain parallel to the LE does, for the front of the wing.

IF there is any advantage - and I think there might be - how large an advantage? Idunno. Just recall that a rolled sheet distorts easier in the same direction it was rolled than in any other direction... Ever roll up a set of plans and have the end edges not line up? Much easier for this to happen than for the plans to bend in the middle of the roll, no?

\BEST\LOU

Offline sleepy gomez

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 08:57:13 PM »
Sorry, my dyslexia set in.  Yes, parallel to the spar was what I meant to say. 

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 09:28:46 PM »
I know when I sheet built up wings I keep the grain parallel to the leading edge. Good idea Lou, unfortunately the wing skins for this project have already been made or I'd give it a try. Thanks all for the input. 8)
Pete Cunha
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 10:32:46 AM »
No you don't.

If the wing is tapered, how do you get away without using angled or tapered piece of sheeting?? ???

Cheers Neville
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 12:26:26 PM »
the sheeting as I understand it, lies parallel to the leading edge, the trailing edge is just trimmed off allowing the grain to run at a slight angle relative to the trailing egde
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2010, 12:39:31 AM »
If the wing is tapered, how do you get away without using angled or tapered piece of sheeting?? ???

Cheers Neville


Read Mark's last post, except I line my sheeting up with the trailing edge. That about covers it. Why would want to make such a simple process WAY more difficult by trying to insert tapered pices? I mean, It's fine if you want to do it, but why would you want to?
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2010, 07:24:55 AM »

Read Mark's last post, except I line my sheeting up with the trailing edge. That about covers it. Why would want to make such a simple process WAY more difficult by trying to insert tapered pices? I mean, It's fine if you want to do it, but why would you want to?
Well it would be difficult if you tried to "insert" the tapered piece.  If however you lay out all the pieces first and start with the tapered piece and build the skin from the "inside out" it is not any harder than piecing together a skin in any other sequence.  The benefit as I see it in keeping the grain parrallel with airfoil curvature as much as possilbe, is that it helps to get better fit / contact between the skin and the core, especially between spar and LE where you have most curvature.  I use the "inside out" building sequence where ever possible because I know I get better fits that way..
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 10:27:19 AM »
the sheeting as I understand it, lies parallel to the leading edge, the trailing edge is just trimmed off allowing the grain to run at a slight angle relative to the trailing egde
Then you are STILL using an angled or tapered piece of wood! It might not be in the middle of the wing, but its still tapered!  ;D. Surely its better  to join-up and sand all the sheeting before attaching to the ribs? Sanding sheeting joints when already attached to the wing, can give you hollows! That starved horse look LL~


Cheers    Neville
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Offline TDM

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 03:29:05 PM »
I think the best is make a paper template and make 3 sections parallel to the TE LE and the Spar. Best of all worlds because it forms easy around the LE it takes the stress as a spar and it give a nice TE. At least this is my direction I am taking in my project REvolutions.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 09:20:54 AM »
Build an Adimisin wing that is sheeted with no spar.  Frame up the wing in a Lincoln Log Jig.  Lay out the sheet wood on the bench a little over size with the sheeting grain in proper directions.   Have a bunch of weights, pins and whatever else you can think of.  A good supply of really slow cure epoxy.  Put the epoxy on the frame work, ribs, leading and trailing edge.  Lay the sheet in plane and start pinning to hold in place.  Start putting weights on the surface  to make contact.  It takes times that is why  I use slow cure epoxy.  When you are done make sure you have not put any twists in the wing.  The next day or two go remove the weghts and pins.  Turn the wing over and look at all the joints.  If done properly there will be no gaps.  You will also see the panel is a lot stiffer.  Now you do the sheet on the uncovered side the same way.  Yes it will take a week or more to do it right.  But, when done you will have a fully sheeted wing that is very stiff. 

The other alternative and I have used it on quick builds is to use white glue.  You have to mark your sheet where the ribs, trailing and leading edges will be.  Also the spar if there is one at the surface.  If the spar is not into the ribs to make a smooth surface, do so even if you have to cut the notches deeper.  Now you take the bottle of plain ole Elmer's White Glue and put a coat over all the areas you have marked for gluing on the sheet balsa.  While it dries do the same on the wing frame work.  When and only when the glue has dried do you do the next step.  Get an iron and turn the heat up on it.  After it gets hot put your sheet of balsa on the wing where you want it.  Use a pin or two to hold it in place when you start.  Now start at trailing edge and start ironing.  Go slow as you want the heat to activate the white glue.  When done and you have taken your time the sheet should be permanetly adhered to the structure.  I have done it and know it works.  But like anything it takes time and patience. H^^

Any questions PM me .
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 11:30:02 AM »
In an R/C scale construction book I have the author reckons that its best to make up the sheet in one piece, sand well to a really smooth surface then, wet with a spray on the inside, and tape to the wing and leave overnight. The curve is already there in the sheet making it easier to attach? Stressed skins as it were?

Cheers       Neville
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2010, 01:44:45 PM »
Doc, to your reply #16...

Elmer's (yellow) Carpenters' glue is an aliphatic resin. The white isn't. The yellow cures waterproof; the white doesn't. Heating the white speeds up its cure by boiling off the solvent: water.

Dozens of years ago, possibly in RCM when it was still around, a building tip pointed out that aliphatics "final-cure" slowly. I seem to recall the article claimed it took several days for aliphatic to "final-cure" completely - a chemical change - at room temps. Heat speeds up the "final-cure" reaction. Ever since, I've applied LE sheeting on C-tube/D-tube wings as you described, but with aliphatic. The yellow Elmer's is pretty thick - it can be thinned with water, but don't go overboard. A mix of one part water to three parts aliphatic should do.
 
Serious jigging is really worthwhile when heat-setting sheeting, as it ain't gonna move after the heat works on it. Pressure on the $Kote iron assures full, continuous contact while it kicks. 1/16" sheeting seems to work out best; thicker doesn't allow the heat through as dependably. You should have the glue lines damp enough that you hear the sizzle when it does kick. Not soggy, just about dry to the touch.

The recent FM article on Brickhaus' Fairey Barracuda (scary name?) describes a different method for using slightly thinned aliphatic. Worth a look, to inspire some thoughts.
\BEST\LOU

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Grain direction in sheeted wings
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 01:24:33 AM »
 Barrcuda's !

Reputed comment of American Navy Officer on British Carrier Re  : Fairey Barracuda ,

"That sure is a marvellous flying machine ,

 But it will never replace the Aeroplane " !                Youd need a look at a full size there.

 An uncle parted this world a few weeks back, reckond he worked on design of electrical installations on them .

 seem to recall he said they made a fair sort of  THUMP as they went in .
Base was out on some eastut with big mud flats at low tide .
 
  Mk 5 , Griffon engined , wasnt  as  underpowered.

 Initialy Barracudas had a major problem with Gyroscopic Prcession .

Trimed for full dive , at full throttle
 maybe 1.500 hp , if the pull out was abrupt with the dive brakes pulled up still at Full Throttle , Theyed
do a  hard right , 180 deg. roll, and stick the nose in the drink  . cause of  the 'nose up' trim ,inverted .
low level pull outs were baned untill  this was investigated .

 Oh well , they hit the Tirptz anyway .Mightve gone quite well with a Turbo prop .


Another  amusing Navy story was a carrier ordered to trim all props 6 in. for deck clearance.

Later found the order was intended for the carriers SeaFire's . The Barracudas take of wasnt helped by red line r.p.m.s in this case ,either.

edit. Thinking back , I think it was the Evading hard right , if simultaeneous with pull out ,that caused the Tourque Roll.
Cumulative forces takeing over. The Mk5 had an enormous  fin strake to counter this . Plus more span .
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 05:19:58 PM by Matthew Spencer »


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