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Author Topic: Film on film inquiry  (Read 1439 times)

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Film on film inquiry
« on: July 06, 2007, 03:09:46 PM »
OK I have a question: 

Suppose I want to put some Monokote trim over Monokote covering (read generic, any plastic iron-on film):  From what I've read, I float it into place using Windex as a lubricant, carefully blot out all excess liquid, let it dry...then what?  Am I done, does it stay stuck?  Or do I need to go over it with the iron? 

--Ray
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 03:29:47 PM »
The sevret from my experience is, you can put monokote over virtually any film, however no promises of any other film as a trim. When you float it into place, use a credit card or plastic squeegee and work as much windex as you can out and blot edges dry. after sitting for 24 hours then you use Monokote solvent, available through tower or local HS. I use a good quality long bristle brush and float a wet edge around the trim peice. then dont touch it for several hours and let it dry, that sticks it. If you use heat or an iron, you stand the chance of creatign the dreaded zits or bubbles between film layers. FWIW, latetly I have been using Ultracote as trim, it adheres at a lower temp, I do iron this on over adhered shrunk monokote with an iron tested to be in the adhesive range for the ultracote. REALLY works well. It seems to greatly reduce the problems with bubbles, the other thing I have noted about Ultracote, if you dont have it exactly right you can warm it with heat and reposition to some extent, Monokote dont do that well.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2007, 04:09:48 PM »
I know zip about iron on plastics. I've done them, but not well. Mark's work if very good. Listen to him.
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 06:04:08 PM »
All right!  I got advice and a testimonial...what more could a guy ask?

Thanks, fellas.

--Ray
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 08:37:45 PM »
I would not use windex, just plain water. You do not want anything that would leave a chemical residue on the films surface to interfere with the adhesive. I also would stick with the same manufacturers film rather than mix. This eliminates any disimiliar shrinkage rates. Finally especially if you are going to overlap large areas, pinhole the underlying layer in several places. When heated the adhesives can tend to outgas forming bubbles even without air being trapped. The pinholes in the underlying layer give a outlet for those gasses.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 11:36:59 PM »
Peter,

It's been discovered by some iron on gurus that the windex actually causes the adhesive to stick better. Almost don't need to iron it at all.

There was a discussion of this online some time back with guys like Dan Rutherford (an acknowledged film master) saying that he often uses windex to position and stick the film then uses some sort of Monokote sealer to seal the edges. His film finishes look painted.
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Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2007, 12:09:19 AM »
I have found that Ultracoat works well as a trim over Monokote. Monokote over Monokote is harder to do a nice job. Nobler is Monokote over Monokote.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 10:06:06 PM by Greg L Bahrman »
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2007, 12:19:44 AM »
Randy, thanks for the kind words.. as you know I would rather paint, but,,, well later when my models have greater longevity,,  I agree again, if you insist on ironing the trim, then Ultracoat over Monokote is a really sweet combo. However if you want to use monokote as trim,,,,,
In my experience, the windex is a KEY ingrediant of the system I described, water takes forever to evaporate from under the film wheras the windex, (and I dont reccomend any other brand, I use ONLY original formula windex) does cause better "sticktion" for lack of a better term. One of the keys is that you have already covered the surface entirely with the first film and shrunk it to the max. You may even want to do like I do and set the puppy out in the sun for a day, then reshrink it to make sure. That way when you put the trim on, you know its pretty likely that it will not have to be reshrunk much if any. Then the windex places the trim peice and after drying as I said, you run a bead of Monokote Trim Solvent around the edge. What that does is activate the solvent in the Monokote,( no gaurentees on any other brand working for a trim peice with this method) and adhering it as well as ironing does. At this point NO heat is used to stick the film down further, as none is needed. The edge is sealed just as though you had ironed it, but without the nasty bubble thing goin on. If you mess with the trim after using the Mono-trim solvent, you can really make a mess as the pigment and the adhesive get softened by this wonderfull chemical and you can smear it around a bunch. If it oozes and makes a mess first you are probably using to much solvent but,,, resist the temptation to mess with it, let it set and dry for several hours, then using a lint free paper towel lightly dampened with the solvent gently clean up the mess. You can use some finish glaze like you would on paint to really sparkle the monokote up for a contest but try to use natrual fiber cloth, OR the new microfiber wipes bodyshops are using are fantastic.

for reference, the Gee Bee is my design, the finish is Monokote with Ultracoat trim ironed on, really sweet application, then a 1/16 inch tape strip, the numbers are Ultracoat ironed on.
the second pict is my oriental, the lighter rose colored trim is put on with the windex method as I described, been to 2 contests and test flights, no lifting or loosness anywhere even on the corners and the really narrow tips.
The third one is a twister I built that is also monokoted wings, the blue was ironed on but there was only 1/4" overlap so it was pretty safe, the red swish is a monokote trim peice floated on as described, again no heat after the fact jsut the solvent again there is no problem with lifting of any of the fine tips.

as a final note, Randy can attest to this, normally I abhor combining any products togehter that are not designed to work together, so I do reccomend monokote over monokote, however the ultracoat is really a nice combo for ironing areas over others because of the temp differential, it applies at a lower temp than Monokote.
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2007, 05:41:03 AM »
Much good info here...thanks.  I'm off to buy some Windex.

--Ray
--Ray 
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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2007, 04:21:55 PM »
Ray,

Mark is a master at finishing. If you do it his way you will have great results.

The method he uses has been use by many of us for decades. It works!

The only thing I can add is: Although using the Monokote trim solvent on the edges works fine, it's smell is only out done by a skunk! The alternative is to use a small sealing iron along the edges (only in about 1/8") instead of using the smelly solvent, AFTER you have used the Windex, and waited 24 hours. Like Mark said, be careful not to have too high of a heat if you do this, just enough to seal the edge. I had a pylon racer for 5 years with this system and it never lifted the trim. 

RE: the Ultracoat. After using Monokote for over 35 years, I tried Ultracoat. It is easier to use, but the colors are softer, not as bright. I still use Monokote because of their wide color selection and brilliant colors!  I have a 100" glider that I built in 1977. It is covered with Monokote and trimmed with Monokote. It still looks like new, and flys great. I used the method Mark uses, setting the plane out in the Sun to dry out the wood, then shrunk down the Monokote. BTW, when you get wrinkles in any film covering, it is not the film that is stretching in the sun, it is the balsa wood "shrinking" underneath the covering because it is like a sponge and expands and contracts with moisture. This is why our ARFs from China usually have wrinkles when they get to our dryer climates.

RE: 24 hour dry. This is amazingly critical (please don't ask how I know this ;-). After using the Windex method as outlined by Mark, set the plane aside for the full 24 hrs. don't let it get bumped, moved or sneezed on.  n1 The results will reward your Patience.

Most of us can only dream of finishing our planes like Mark does. We are lucky to have him share his tips with us. :-)
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Film on film inquiry
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2007, 08:27:46 PM »
Been using Monokote from the first day it hit the shelves. Even before they had an iron just for it. Used my moms clothes iron to stick the stuff down. The difference in my texhnique is I fully iron any trim and color panels down fully so no need for sealer or thinner around the edges.

I've tried everything from super coverite, solar film, and every version of "kote" froduced over the years and I keep going back and sticking with the topflite product. It has been the most consistant and reliable film of the bunch. Now that I think of it I have never painted any of my planes, with the exception of the engine compartments, cocpit detail etc. If you are creative enough there is almost no effect that can not be achieved with the film.

Now if I can figure out how to reproduce color shading and blended color transitions with film I'll be all set. Have to experiment with transparents over pearls and solids more.
Words Spoken by the first human to set foot on Mars... "Now What?"


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