Author Topic: Blown Flap system (Read 7889 times)

tom creasey · « **on:** December 21, 2015, 06:31:18 PM »

hello everyone.
My flying buddy told me I aught to share my build with ya all. It started out at the NATS last year and I went to the Appearance judging and come across an airplane belonging to Wes Dick with his Velvet airplane with Blown flaps. I looked at the complexity of the flap system and I was inspired right then, I was going to build an airplane with a blown flap system. Wes Dick is the warmest man in Indiana. He has help me along as I installed the system.
I built my first P-40 Warhawk Midwest kit in 1976, when I was 12 years old. I went to recover it and something ate half the wing. I got a Twister kit from the NATS this year and thought that would be a better wing then the Midwest kit. So I had a plan. The fuselage is profile. I have about 40 hours into the flaps. Building has been super fun. I am so EXCITED and CAN'T wait to fly it. Fell free to ask question. I will try to answer them. Thank you

tom creasey · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2015, 06:33:25 PM »

The WWII P-40's was a squadron of 80th fighter group and this is going to be my paint scheme. I still have some tweaking and sanding to do. But I finally got to use the bellcrank to move flap system this morning after a month of building. It was purdy AWESOME

I posted the wrong picture of the finished flap system. The other pic was a mock up before I constructed the main flap

Her name is "Sherry Beth" after my childhood friend and wife.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2015, 08:21:04 PM »

This is going to be worth watching.

Motorman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2015, 09:13:58 PM »

Where does the air come from that blows on the flaps?

MM

tom creasey · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2015, 07:27:46 AM »

Quote from: Motorman on December 21, 2015, 09:13:58 PM

Where does the air come from that blows on the flaps?

MM

LOL....Well....Me and few being talking about that....I was a crewchief on F-4 Phantom and bleed air was blown into the leading edge on the wing. The designer has called them blown flaps. Another called them a Fowler flap. It's a good discussion though

tom creasey · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2015, 07:31:59 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on December 21, 2015, 08:21:04 PM

This is going to be worth watching.

RIGHT....LOL....It will be priceless to fly.....So excited....can't wait

Bill Johnson · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2015, 10:54:53 AM »

A slotted flap! Fowler flaps are a slotted flap that also extend to increase area. It would be nice to have access to a wind tunnel to see how effective it is and allow some testing / modification. We had one at the A&P school I worked at so students could test their airfoil designs.

It sure looks cool.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2015, 11:20:15 AM »

I guess I don't see the power source or the outlets for the blower air.

Brett

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2015, 11:47:50 AM »

Other than a WOW-factor, what flying improvement is expected?

F.C.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2015, 12:33:51 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 22, 2015, 11:20:15 AM

I guess I don't see the power source or the outlets for the blower air.

Brett

well depending upon the pilot at hand, the source could be at circle center,,,, hot air just like the F-4 uses

tom creasey · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2015, 01:36:47 PM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on December 22, 2015, 12:33:51 PM

well depending upon the pilot at hand, the source could be at circle center,,,, hot air just like the F-4 uses

I know I blow alot of air when I talk about it....cause too excited to control myself.....I am like a little kid.

The design takes pressure off the flight control pivot point by letting air threw and when I start my maneuvers the mushing will be no longer, course you have to have everything else right, The wing is a twister. My midwest P-40 fuselage is three more inches longer in the tail and 1 1/2 longer in the nose than the twister. My wing incident has to be figured out. So I plan on building another and this one is my experiment.

Wish I had access to a wind tunnel, We could all improve are designs even better. This will be my first time with the flap system also. I will document everything and make improvements as needed so I can Whip some butt at the NATS.....and no I didn't say wipe....I said WHIP....LOL....sorry I am real competitive....played ball

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2015, 01:39:27 PM »

Quote from: tom creasey on December 22, 2015, 01:36:47 PM

I know I blow alot of air when I talk about it....cause too excited to control myself.....I am like a little kid.
The design takes pressure off the flight control pivot point by letting air threw and when I start my maneuvers the mushing will be no longer, course you have to have everything else right, The wing is a twister. My midwest P-40 fuselage is three more inches longer in the tail and 1 1/2 longer in the nose than the twister. My wing incident has to be figured out. So I plan on building another and this one is my experiment. Wish I had access to a wind tunnel, We could all improve are designs even better. This will be my first time with the flap system also. I will document everything and make improvements as needed so I can Whip some butt at the NATS.....and no I didn't say wipe....I said WHIP....LOL....sorry I am real competitive....played ball

Tom,,
I hope you got that I was poking fun,, No ill will intended right?
I admire your enthusiasm for the project,, and it looks great so far, keep on keeping on

tom creasey · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2015, 01:41:37 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 22, 2015, 11:20:15 AM

I guess I don't see the power source or the outlets for the blower air.

Brett

that is next stage in the build.....I can see it .....can't you see it

tom creasey · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2015, 01:47:51 PM »

Oh Mark.... It's all good....I know you wasn't. I thought it was purdy funny.....I am like has he know me? LOL

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2015, 02:52:44 PM »

Quote from: tom creasey on December 22, 2015, 01:47:51 PM

Oh Mark.... It's all good....I know you wasn't. I thought it was purdy funny.....I am like has he know me? LOL

tom creasey · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2015, 09:32:29 PM »

Anybody wants to build the blown flap system get a hold of PM me

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2015, 08:17:42 PM »

Wes Dick's "Velvet" with multiple flaps.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2015, 10:42:23 PM »

Quote from: Serge_Krauss on December 26, 2015, 08:17:42 PM

Wes Dick's "Velvet" with multiple flaps.

The airplane works pretty well, although I can't tell from the outside whether it is better than a conventional arrangement. Wes could correct me, but I don't think that these are "blown" flaps, but slotted flaps. I don't recall any auxiliary engine or motor to generate blower air or any sort of BLC.

I mocked up both a BLC system and a "forced turning" trailing edge at one point, but I never found a practical way to implement it on a real airplane, or at least not before I realized that a better engine obviates the need for heroic high-lift devices.

Brett

Motorman · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2015, 09:10:44 AM »

I'm still waiting for slats.

MM

tom creasey · « **Reply #19 on:** December 31, 2015, 08:36:06 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 26, 2015, 10:42:23 PM

The airplane works pretty well, although I can't tell from the outside whether it is better than a conventional arrangement. Wes could correct me, but I don't think that these are "blown" flaps, but slotted flaps. I don't recall any auxiliary engine or motor to generate blower air or any sort of BLC.

I mocked up both a BLC system and a "forced turning" trailing edge at one point, but I never found a practical way to implement it on a real airplane, or at least not before I realized that a better engine obviates the need for heroic high-lift devices.

Brett

Wes designed the system and has called the system BLOWN....not my doing. I posted this here for people to enjoy or see something different or start a discussion. I want my lap time to stay as slow as I can get, so bigger engine won't keep my lap times down. This system reduces drag on the wing and takes the mushing away when you put the plane in a maneuver, which I can slow down my lap times with adjusting the pitch of my prop.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2015, 06:33:28 PM »

Quote from: tom creasey on December 31, 2015, 08:36:06 AM

Wes designed the system and has called the system BLOWN....not my doing. I posted this here for people to enjoy or see something different or start a discussion. I want my lap time to stay as slow as I can get, so bigger engine won't keep my lap times down. This system reduces drag on the wing and takes the mushing away when you put the plane in a maneuver, which I can slow down my lap times with adjusting the pitch of my prop.

No harm done, but "Blown" is a moderately well-defined term, and this is not it.

I think this system greatly increases the drag and the control loads, to create, hopefully, a much higher Cl. A potentially more effective way to do the same thing is to use a much more powerful engine running a very low pitched prop. Many 40VF airplanes fly well in the 5.4-5.5 sec/lap area and they don't have any issue with cornering - Paul Walker raised the standard on cornering by a remarkable degree with a 40VF and a completely conventional flap setup.

I would also be curious how much deflection you end up with in flight. I would bet you get about +- 15 degrees in the air, at which point I wonder how much air you are entraining or how effective it might be.

Brett

Rick Bollinger · « **Reply #21 on:** January 01, 2016, 01:27:54 PM »

Tom
Its looking good. We are going to have to set a date to maiden yours and my new Vector for a full trim day. Also to keep us motivated to get them done by that date.

tom creasey · « **Reply #22 on:** January 02, 2016, 12:37:34 AM »

Quote from: Rick Bollinger on January 01, 2016, 01:27:54 PM

Tom
Its looking good. We are going to have to set a date to maiden yours and my new Vector for a full trim day. Also to keep us motivated to get them done by that date.

I am having problems with getting materials right now. I am shooting for March, no later than April. Starting another build here for long. Going to have the same set up with the BLOWN flap system.

tom creasey · « **Reply #23 on:** January 02, 2016, 12:48:21 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 31, 2015, 06:33:28 PM

No harm done, but "Blown" is a moderately well-defined term, and this is not it.

I think this system greatly increases the drag and the control loads, to create, hopefully, a much higher Cl. A potentially more effective way to do the same thing is to use a much more powerful engine running a very low pitched prop. Many 40VF airplanes fly well in the 5.4-5.5 sec/lap area and they don't have any issue with cornering - Paul Walker raised the standard on cornering by a remarkable degree with a 40VF and a completely conventional flap setup.

I would also be curious how much deflection you end up with in flight. I would bet you get about +- 15 degrees in the air, at which point I wonder how much air you are entraining or how effective it might be.

Brett

I have total of +- 35 degrees. Can adjust down easy. Good question on air entraining. Don't know. This is my first plane with this system for me to experiment with. Need to finish and fly and then I will get the plane trimmed out. I will then report to you guys on what it does. Have you ever flown with this flap system installed?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** January 02, 2016, 01:06:30 AM »

Quote from: tom creasey on January 02, 2016, 12:48:21 AM

I have total of +- 35 degrees. Can adjust down easy. Good question on air entraining. Don't know. This is my first plane with this system for me to experiment with. Need to finish and fly and then I will get the plane trimmed out. I will then report to you guys on what it does. Have you ever flown with this flap system installed?

Not like this one, although several other interesting examples.

My point was that conventional systems can corner hard enough that the pilot cannot deal with the full technical capability of the airplanes - as long at they have enough of the right kind of "power".

Brett

tom creasey · « **Reply #25 on:** January 02, 2016, 08:49:03 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on January 02, 2016, 01:06:30 AM

Not like this one, although several other interesting examples.

My point was that conventional systems can corner hard enough that the pilot cannot deal with the full technical capability of the airplanes - as long at they have enough of the right kind of "power".

Brett

I have OS LA40 and LA46. Going to start with the 46, but I think the 40 would be best. Running APC prop. Seems the OS engine runs a perfect 4-2 with the type of venturi and needle assy. I haven't tried 3 blade props. I am running 11 x 4 to 12 x 3.75. I don't know enough information about 3 blade props.

I fly combat for fun and practice my pattern and then switch to my event plane and fly my pattern. The technical side of the plane can be changed to fit my style of flying, It might make the feel of the handle better for me to make my maneuvers smooth and accurate. Don't know, but hoping....LOL. It will be exciting to fly something different and conversational. I can't wait to feel the handle when it takes off for the first time

Will Hinton · « **Reply #26 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:18:51 PM »

I can't help but comment on your statement that a larger engine won't help you keep your lap times down. When I went to the PA 75 and started using a 14 X 4.25 three blade I was able to, and still do, fly good patterns at 5.7 second laps. With my rapidly aging body, that helped get me up above the 500 mark on a fairly consistent basis.
Randy told me at the nats years ago that, "When it comes to flying slow, diameter is king." He is right, and it takes a brute up front to swing those big props.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2016, 04:24:28 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on January 02, 2016, 01:06:30 AM

Not like this one, although several other interesting examples.

My point was that conventional systems can corner hard enough that the pilot cannot deal with the full technical capability of the airplanes - as long at they have enough of the right kind of "power".

Brett

If these flaps work, they should make more lift than ordinary flaps, allowing a heavier plane that's better in turbulence for the same cornering capability.

tom creasey · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2016, 06:39:10 PM »

Quote from: Will Hinton on January 02, 2016, 02:18:51 PM

I can't help but comment on your statement that a larger engine won't help you keep your lap times down. When I went to the PA 75 and started using a 14 X 4.25 three blade I was able to, and still do, fly good patterns at 5.7 second laps. With my rapidly aging body, that helped get me up above the 500 mark on a fairly consistent basis.
Randy told me at the nats years ago that, "When it comes to flying slow, diameter is king." He is right, and it takes a brute up front to swing those big props.

I am with you on the 3 blade. I just don't have the knowledge about a 3 blade. Willing to learn. I only have 2 blade and I know what works for the engine I have. I need to do my research. I am running 4.7 to 5.1 for laps with the 40 size. I would love to have a PA but can't afford one. Trying to work my way up the ladder, been away from modeling for 30 years. I am back and here to make a rumble......LOL

Will Hinton · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2016, 12:01:54 PM »

Tom, I am so happy you're back at it. I'm also glad you're doing your research - when I came back after an 18 year hiatus I didn't do that and went through a lot of grief because of it! I didn't have stunthanger then, either. (That was in 1989.) This forum is worth its weight in gold for all who use it! Keep up the current approach and you'll soon be knocking out good patterns.

tom creasey · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2016, 07:38:17 AM »

Quote from: Will Hinton on January 03, 2016, 12:01:54 PM

Tom, I am so happy you're back at it. I'm also glad you're doing your research - when I came back after an 18 year hiatus I didn't do that and went through a lot of grief because of it! I didn't have stunthanger then, either. (That was in 1989.) This forum is worth its weight in gold for all who use it! Keep up the current approach and you'll soon be knocking out good patterns.

Thank you Will Hinton. I have 2 other sites to go to for info besides stunthangar. They are really awesome people that have the greatest ideas, and are helpful. I am a fighter jet technician, so I can relate a lot easier and can retain info on aircraft. Love of my life, besides my wife. I do a lot of engineering, modifications, rework, and repair. It is so much easier with Balsa.....LOL....That's how great aircraft first started, was wood and steel. We have come along way in a short time in todays Aircraft.