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Author Topic: Am I the dope or is it the dope?  (Read 2078 times)

Offline david beazley

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Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« on: July 03, 2008, 09:12:12 AM »
I am new to CL but been flying RC 25+ years.  I am building a Sig Skyray and covered the wing with Koverall which i have used before.  The fuse and stab are fiberglassed with .75 oz cloth and West Systems epoxy which I have used numerous times before.  In keeping in the spirit of CL I wanted to do a dope finish.  I had some Randolph's Butyrate that was given to me along with butyrate thinner.  I brushed 2 coats of 50/50 clear nitrate/nitate thinner over the Koverall.  I sprayed about 3 more coats of 50/50 nitrate over the whole plane.  I then used 21st Century primer over the works.  I sanded the primer with 320 then 400 wet paper.  I cleaned and wiped with isopropyl alcohol.  Then I sprayed the Butyrate thinned about 50/50 with the butyrate thinner.  I did a 2 color scheme, light green overall then taped off for forest green stripes on the wing.  I let dry for about 3-4 days.  I assembled everything and took it out to the yard to test run the engine setup.  I am using a Fox .35 50th anniversary engine, plastic tank rubberbanded to the nose.  The first thing I noticed is that there were immediate discolorations on the dope where ever raw fuel splashed.  After an abortive attempt to get the engine running (that's another story) I took the plane back to the shop to asses the situation.  There were spots where the fuel had discolored the dope plus areas under the rubberbands for the tank that the dope was gone down to the primer. 
A couple of days later I recleaned everything with alcohol, taped off the dark green stripes and reshot the light green.  So far so good.  When i took the tape off to re-tape for the stripes the dark green started to come up with the tape.  I theorized that if I reshot the dark green that perhaps the thinner would re-bond the dark green again, so I re-taped and reshot the dark green.  When dry I took the tape off and now everything was coming up with the tape even down to the nitrate on the wing.  I got so disgusted that I stripped the Koverall off and am now thinking of sanding the fuse and Monokoting the wing and shooting some kind of rattle can on the fuse and just flying the d*mned thing.  Any thoughts as to what went wrong?  Was it technique, product, or me?
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 09:21:45 AM »
My guess is that, first, you used too many different types of paints.   Butyrate over Nitrate works, but I have suspicions about the 21st Century Primer.  Who knows WHAT that is.

Second, it sounds like you are applying too heavy a finish for CL work.  RC planes are nowhere nearly as sensitive to weight, as they are not flying in as tightly controlled airspace.  'Glass on the fuselage is OK, but on the tail is probably overkill.

Third, the discoloration of your color dope is because you didn't clear coat over it so far as I can tell.  Color dopes are not anywhere nearly as fuelproof as clear.  And the clear  is even better if you apply wax over it.

Finally, if I remember the stuff correctly Sig Koverall is a very heavy fabric.  The paintable coverings to use are ultra-light silk, polyspan or silkspan.

Strip and Monokote sounds like your best plan!

But welcome aboard and good luck!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Leo Mehl

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 09:48:00 AM »
welcome to the modern world of modeling. I too went thru this senareo. I have used coverall on some of my larger stunters. It is a little heavy but takes dope just fine. The main problem I see with coverall is that airplane dope does not penatrate the frabric but lays on top and when it gets any kind of stress it will crack the paint and it will come off in some places or leave stress marks on the finish. As far as mixing paint products you are asking for trouble. If you are going to experiment with new prducts use the same product throughout the painting process. I use buterate dope for my planes. It is the lightest and is probably the second most fuel proof product you can use.
  Good luck and hope you have many fine years flying. This is a great sport with a lot of great people in it! H^^

Alan Hahn

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 11:58:52 AM »
A lot of dope finishes have difficulty with raw fuel---remember that one of the liquids used in paint strippers is methanol. Also the nitro--at levels greater than 15% also tends to melt the finish if raw fuel is put on.

Secondly I am not too sure about the hardness of the commercial dopes like Randolph's. I only say this because in their normal use--full scale planes-- they are not exposed to our glow fuels. I "think" model dopes are specially formulated to have to be fuel proof, but it is only approximate. I note that I primarily have used Sig dopes in the recent past, but even Sig had trouble on my half-a when raw fuel was spilled on it. Brodak dopes (based on Randolph dope I believe) are now known to have issues with raw fuel . As Larry R. mentioned clear butyrate (at least Sig ) is the most fuel proof top coat for dope.

I believe the main reason butyrate dope was developed was because it is a lot less flammable than nitrate dope, something to be concerned about in a full scale crash.

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2008, 01:27:57 PM »
Dope isn't nearly as easy to work with as everyone would like to believe.  It's also not very fuel proof, fuel resistent maybe, but raw fuel is still a bad idea.  Dope tends to not be very durable, and rubbing off down to primer isn't all that unusual on a profile.  For a Skyray you're putting in way too much work, and effort.  It's already extremely durable by design before you use a durable covering like Koverall and fibreglass/epoxy.   Usually when they crash the wing re-kits and if the fuselage is REALLY soft it breaks right behind the wing.  The tail surfaces rarely break.  With Koverall and glass a Skyray could be flown over the top and into the ground and probably do more damage to the engine then the airframe.  You would probably be happier if you covered the wings in film and sprayed the wood pieces with Rustoleum.  It's much faster, cheaper, covers in one coat, and from what I can tell shines better, and stands up better to fuel.  Do a couple searches, dig around a bit, the people getting really nice results with dope are in the minority.

Also on the topic of the Fox, bench run it a bit before you try it on the plane.  They usually don't start really working well till they've been used for a season. 

Online Doug Moon

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2008, 03:16:40 PM »
When pulling tape always heat with a hairdryer, not a heat gun.  Just a touch of heat will release the adhesive and save you tons of peel ups.

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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2008, 05:35:58 PM »
As far as dope not being very durable?  I don't know what that is based on, but I've had ships with several hundred flights on them when using Randoph dope from my local airport and had no problems with the finish.  Same goes for my full scale Tri-Pacer and Pawnee, but like you say, they didn't have to put up with nitro.  HOWEVER - the Pawnee surely did put up with some chemicles a LOT more unfriendly than model airplane fuel.  The grass refused to grow under the thing where I tied it down and the dope finish held up just fine.
Will
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Offline david beazley

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2008, 06:56:45 PM »
Thanks for all the input.  I have recovered the wing with Monokote.  What type of Rustoleum works for glow fuel?  There seems to be various types at the big boxes.
As far as the Fox goes I ran about 16 oz of Fox 5% thru it before I tried it on a plane.  I first tried it on my Brodak Super Clown (nonARF).  I set the needle where I thought it should be but my buddy thought it needed a tweak when I walked back to pick up the handle and ended up with a lean run.  From that point on it won't needle.  I have a ST NVA on it.  I had the hole pointing straight down but read in the forum that it should be at the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position relative to the crank.  I have changed it but not run it yet.  I have taken it apart and the piston/sleeve isn't scored but there seems to be alot of varnish build up.  I have ordered a hemi head and stuffer backplate to see if this might help.  I tried to bench run it after taking it off the Skyray.  It won't hold a needle. I used hi temp silicone on the backplate as the gasket looked as if it may have been leaking. Still bad.  Now it won't run unless the battery is connected to the glow plug. It dies when it is disconnected.  I have ordered some hotter plugs to see if that helps.  I used a APC 9-4 for break in and tried flying on an APC 9-6 and a Kavan 9-6.  I have been flying the Clown on an old ASP .25 that I made a venturi for.  It is an ABC BB R/C engine that runs fine even on the 5% Fox fuel.  How can a machine that has 3 moving parts be so frustrating?!!
It's only paranoia if they aren't really after you.
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2008, 07:16:10 PM »
Dave,
If you have too much varnish, a little steel wool will remove it from the standard steel piston/sleeve assembly. The lean run may also have caused some problems with the glow plug. And the silicon gasket may have cused  the element to be toast.ed I recommend removing the silicon rubber gasket. I made a gasket out of automotive gasket material from a Auto parts store( a dark paper-like material)--it is thick enough to seal that miserable gap in the Fox backplate.

Then put in a new plug.

A contaminated plug just simply won't tolerate a rich run---the element is coated with crud and the platinum/rare earth element in it can't react and heat-up when exposed to raw fuel. The only way to keep it hot is to lean it out---and you don't really want to do that

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 12:52:12 AM »
Do a search for Rustoleum, there's a lot of information out there.  The rattle can non-metallic lighter colors are supposed to be fuel proof.  I finished three planes last month, one was dope/monokote and the other two were rustoleum/monokote.  I spent a lot more time on the dope finish and the rustoleum really looks better and took a fraction of the time, even with the long dry time.  The dope rubs off a bit when I clean the plane, while the Rustoleum doesn't.

On your Fox, you'll find that they seem really picky but really aren't that bad.  Dying when you remove the battery is a sure sign the plug is bad, as long as the fuel is good.  16oz is a good start, but it might take many more before the engine really becomes tolerable.  The stuffer backplate and hemi head are neat, but won't make up for the long slow break in.  The problem with not holding a needle setting sounds like it's probably break in related also.  If it's loose enough to start fairly easily, I'd just put it on the plane and fly it in a fast 4 cycle.  Just avoid setting it too lean till it's got some time on it.  The silicone sealer on the backplate isn't a bad idea.  I usually coat the stock cork gasket on both sides then bolt it together and clean off the excess.  Try an APC 10x5 if you want a really sweet 2-4-2 break.  I can't stress enough that break in is king with the Fox.  It only takes a few runs to get them to start easily, but they don't really peak till they've been run a bunch.  You can save time and fuel buying well used Fox 35's on ebay.  There's a ton of Fox tips that can be found by searching also, just keep in mind some people just don't like them and their comments will come up too.  Depending on what you want to do, it might be easier to put a OS 20-25FP or LA 25 on a plane so you have something to fly while the Fox comes in. 

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 01:41:02 PM »
As to the hole in the spray bar.  The positioning is more like 4-5 O'Clock or 7-8 O'Clock.  It needs to be point downward slightly as least.  The Fox runs better straight down than at a 90* angle (3 O'Clock or 9 O'Clock) to the throat. 

The 3 and 9 position is for the double hole Stock Fox 35 spray bar.  And since the holes in that one are slightly off center, you should not see either hole when installed.

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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 11:02:01 PM »
My Imitation has Rustoleum gloss white enamel on the fuselage, Ultracote film on wings and stab. After two years and at least 200 flights the Rustoleum looks great, just like when new. I take pains not to spill raw fuel on any of my models, but it still happens. No apparent effect on the Rustoleum. I used a similar paint by a Rustoleum subsidiary as red trim and it is pretty good too, though not as resistant as the white. My understanding is the metalic colors are not fuel resistant at all, so probably should stick with what is known to work. The Rustoleum flows out to a very glossy smooth finish, more than good enough for models not intended to win 20 appearance points at the Nats.

Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 06:28:16 PM »
I don't want to write this again, so please see my post under silk wrinkles.  If I can help more per the manual, E-mail me.  Brodak is Randolph dope. Sig, I don't know.  I have the Randolph manual so won't be speaking of my experience.

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Mike Griffin

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 02:45:24 PM »
What type of Rustoleum works for glow fuel? 

     David,

I quit using dope quite a while back and have gone to plastic film for the wings and Rustoleum on the fuselage.  To answer your question, the gloss enamel Rustoleum in the spray cans in colors are fuel proof.  The clear and the metallic colors are not.  As long as you stick to Gloss white, reds, blues, greens etc. you will be fine.  The can says to spray a second coat on within 1 hour or wait 48 hours.  They are not kidding.  I usually recoat within 15 to 20 minutes.  I have had a couple of times when I applied a second coat a few hours after the first and the first layer blistered in spots.  Dont ask me why but it happened.   Here is a method I have had a lot of luck with.

 1. Sand fuselage, stab and rudder smooth with 220 grit and even 400 if you want.

 2.  Apply either Z Poxy or Minwax polycrylic to the bare wood.  If you use  Z Poxy you only need one coat.  Take a roll of toilet paper and roll over the Zpoxy to remove the excess then take a playing card and scrape what remains on the surface off.  Let cure overnight.

If you use Polycrylic, apply one coat and let dry, sand lightly with 400 grit, add a little zinc stearate (if you have it) to the polycrylic and apply the second coat.  Let dry over night.

3.  Sand the fuselage (which ever you chose) with 220 grit until smooth again.  The pores of the balsa should be pretty well filled.

4.  Take some vinyl spackling compound and thin it with water until it is the consistency of pancake batter.  Brush this over the fuselage and let dry.  Dont heap it on, put it as thin as you can and still get coverage.  If you put this out in the Sun it will dry in an hour if it is hot. 

5.  Take your 220 grit sandpaper and sand this down removing the heavy coating.  If you have brushed it on too heavy, You will be sanding your butt off.  It does come off rather easy though.

6.  Take a tack rag and clean off good and spray either white or gray Rustoleum primer on the fuselage and let dry.  When it is dry, I sand it with 220 and 400 grit to remove a little of the primer.  If you have any gouges, fill with the spackling, let dry re sand and touch up with primer again.

7.  Apply your Rustoleum color as your final coat. 

This may be way more inormation than you wanted but this makes a wonderful finish with no dope.

I also paint right over the monocote with Rustoleum if I want to add designs to the wing. I scuff it up a little with a scotchbrite before I paint it and the paint does not crack or peel or come off.

Hope this helped.n  I am including a picture of a Primary Force which is finished this way.

Mike

Offline david beazley

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Re: Am I the dope or is it the dope?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 08:22:21 PM »
Skyray update.  I have stripped the monokote off the wing, (I didn't like the final product) recovered the wing with Sigcoat or whatever they call their plasic covering.  I sanded the fuse and tail feathers with 320 down to the fiberglass and primed it with Rustoleum gray primer.  I sanded the primer with 400 and sprayed Rustoleum light blue.  I am very pleased with the final result.  In the meantime I rekitted my Clown.  I found out why you want equal up and down movement of the elevator attempting an outside loop (figure 9).  Lesson learned.  I had replaced the ASP on the Clown with the new Evo .36.  I replaced the stock head and backplate on the Fox with the stuffer and hemi.  I used my brake cylinder hone wrapped with 400 w/d sandpaper and oil and removed the glaze on the liner.  I have bench run on the Fox 5% and it runs fine and holds the needle but I feel it needs more breakin.  I put the Evo on the Skyray and am waiting for a chance to test fly it.  I have just received a Dare Sporthawk kit (I need to stay at least one airplane away from golf) and it will be the next on the bench.  I plan on putting the Fox on it.  It will be painted with Rustoleum the first time.  Thanks for all the input.
It's only paranoia if they aren't really after you.
Analog man trapped in a digital world
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