Author Topic: Really crazy idea! (Read 2706 times)

Bill Little · « **on:** February 03, 2007, 10:07:41 PM »

OK guys, y'all be's the "little plane experts", so.............

I have wanted to build a full scale B-17 since I saw the '63 British NATS winner in American Modeler that year. I STIIL HAVE that issue! Now I have the plans!

It has a 44" WS, and used 4 Cox .049s.

Now the crazy idea........ I can very slightly enlarge the wing and tail, make he airfoil fully symmetrical (it's already pretty thick) and have a miniature version of Paul's, which should fly pretty good if I can get reliable power plants to use.

What's y'all's ideas?? I could build a test best Profile first to see..........

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2007, 05:21:41 AM »

My only suggestion would be to dump the Coxes, seems like a nightmare waiting to happen getting four of them running, and well, at once. Use Norvels!

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2007, 05:33:22 AM »

Yes use Norvels.................and maybe it'll work.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2007, 12:19:39 PM »

Yes Bill
Dump the Cox's. In my mail box, please, I have only found 1 cox .049 that I could not make run good. At one time I had 17 of them, gave 15 of them to Roger Watham for his school class project and kept the best one for my FF kiwi.

Clancy

Bill Little · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2007, 01:03:19 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on February 04, 2007, 12:19:39 PM

Yes Bill
Dump the Cox's. In my mail box, please, I have only found 1 cox .049 that I could not make run good. At one time I had 17 of them, gave 15 of them to Roger Watham for his school class project and kept the best one for my FF kiwi.

Clancy

HI Clancy!

The British gentleman responsible for the B-17 developed a very elaborate, yet really simple way to have throttle control on his winning B-17. Doesn't sound like that makes sense does it? LOL!!

It seems to really lend itself to a stunt plane for some reason. it would not have to have a LOT of modifications to make it be a good stunter I believe. Kind of like Paul's plane, which might not have been the very best C/L stunter ever, it would fly the pattern pretty good!

I *think* I have probably missed my shot at winning the Walker Trophy, but that doesn't mean that I can't have fun while competing now, does it.........

Major problem is getting enough fuel to the Cox engines to fly the pattern! I have considered 2 Norvel .061s and two "dummy" props since in flight it wouldn't make a lot of difference and I can use stunt tanks with the Norvels. I do not have the correct Cox engines to do this with.

On th eway down this path, I have considered building a P-38 (modified airfoil from the old Sterling kit) to get used to flying a "multi"! I have a matched pair of Black Widows to use on that.

Any suggestions on an easy way to increase the fuel load on the Black Widows, and other tank equipped Cox engines?

frank carlisle · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2007, 06:33:50 PM »

Bill you obviously have a strong desire to do the impossible and apparently you don't mind banging your head against the wall to do it. I admire these traits in a man.
If you would be willing to move away from the Cox engines and go with the Norvel .061s and an electric starter, I believe you may have a partner in this folly with me.

I've always waanted to build a p-38 and if you wouldn't mind starting with a 1/2A twin and if the p-38 strikes your fancy then you can count me in.

I'm thinking it should be big----48" wing or so. And it should be a stunter with scale like qualities.

Bill Little · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2007, 06:41:39 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on February 04, 2007, 06:33:50 PM

Bill you obviously have a strong desire to do the impossible and apparently you don't mind banging your head against the wall to do it. I admire these traits in a man.
If you would be willing to move away from the Cox engines and go with the Norvel .061s and an electric starter, I believe you may have a partner in this folly with me.

I've always waanted to build a p-38 and if you wouldn't mind starting with a 1/2A twin and if the p-38 strikes your fancy then you can count me in.

I'm thinking it should be big----48" wing or so. And it should be a stunter with scale like qualities.

The only things "impossible" are the things you never try, or give up on!

I have some plans for P-38s. One is a profile, 50" WS. Pretty sure I have a set of Scale plans, too. Let me get back to you! Some modified construction techniques for smaller engines and "stuntability", and it will work. Andy Lee has a P-38 Profile with 2 OS 20S on it. Flys great, and does a real nice pattern!

Bill <><

frank carlisle · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2007, 08:00:11 PM »

My main concern in a project like this is to use engines I have in stock. Those be Norvel .061. Can we build a p-38 based on them as a power source?

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2007, 08:03:03 PM »

Pretty Crazy alright,

but you will pull it off, Im sure!!

Bill Little · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:08:36 PM »

Thanks, Richard! It will be a *little* while before I can start *ANOTHER* project, but I will!

Frank, I am very sure we can get 'er done using two Norvel .061s! Luckily, I have two of them.

Bill Little · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:12:25 PM »

BTW: Built up or Profile? A down and dirty, flapped profile will be quicker!

I have Bill Suarez's plans for his P-38 for control system guidelines. It is very doable. Already have plans for a couple of "non flapped" profiles, but there's no fun in that!

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:17:00 PM »

Bill
I am thinking about a P-38 with 28 inch wing for 2 each cox 010.
How does that sound.

I use the radial engine mounts that are not tanks on my 049's. that way I can use any size tank as required. Most cox 049's shown on ebay have the backplate I am talking about.
Clancy

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on February 04, 2007, 09:17:00 PM

Bill
I am thinking about a P-38 with 28 inch wing for 2 each cox 010.
How does that sound.
Clancy

Hi Clancy,

That sounds like the old Sterling P-38 that used two (old style) .049s. Built right, 2 .010s would fly it fine! I have drawings of the kit parts around here, somewhere! It would just take some thought as to construcion techniques and proper wood sizes. A lot of weight could be cut out of the structure, and smaller sizes used in some places!

Bill <><

Bill <><

Bill Little · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:25:07 PM »

Hey, Frank! I just remembered! I have a Sterling P-38 kit "on loan" to trace the parts out. It is the old one designed for two .15s. 36" span if I remember correctly. A change in airfoil, a diet for some of the wood sizes, and it just *might be the ticket* for 2 Norvel .061s! APC makes 2 pitch props in the smaller 6"-7" sizes.

Hmmmmmmmm.........

frank carlisle · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:10:10 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on February 04, 2007, 09:12:25 PM

BTW: Built up or Profile? A down and dirty, flapped profile will be quicker!

I have Bill Suarez's plans for his P-38 for control system guidelines. It is very doable. Already have plans for a couple of "non flapped" profiles, but there's no fun in that!

I never have liked the looks of profile twins Bill. But it would go easier and quicker. Flaps are a must. We gotta do everything we can to get it to act like a stunter.

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:49:09 PM »

Here's a P38 my son Cody built simular to Dick Sarpolis 1/2As. Talk about fly it would do every thing we asked of it and more. I offen thought that if the wings where airfoiled it would fly better. But then it already flew great. BTW my son came up with the idea, drew it up, and built it all by himself. I also still have the templates and was going to build another for this summer.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2007, 03:25:25 PM »

Good lookin plane. What engines? Line length? etc....you should be proud of that boy; that's quite a project and it looks like he did it well.

--Ray

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2007, 03:47:50 PM »

One was a .061 Norvel the other was a .049 didn't know it till it crashed and we took them off to repair it. Lines was 35' spider wire. Yes I was proud he was one of those kids that showed up with planes that everyone thought I did for him. Actually he was a better builder than me.
Here's one of his other projects. It's a 500Ci Cadillac motor He's putting into a rat rod. 510hp and 590lbs of torque.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2007, 04:01:08 PM »

Say, how old is that kid anyway?

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2007, 04:07:37 PM »

He was about 12 when he built the P38, 17 when he first built the Caddy and put it in a 72 Ford pickup, and now hes 21. He was a really great flier when he was young he can still pick up a handle make me look silly. And some day he'll get the bug and return to flying. He really loved mouse racing.

Robert McHam · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2007, 12:49:22 AM »

Hey Bill! This idea is not nearly as crazy as this one!

Robert

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2007, 01:34:15 AM »

I can not begin to imagine the nighmare of trying to get 9 Coxes running, all frontwards, all at the same time. For what then, a 1- or 2-minute flight with those tanks, even topped off before launch? Unbelievable...still, the sound alone might be almost worth it.

What line length, I wonder, would such a plane use? And I wonder how many engines it took to keep it in the air? Just think about all the ground-taxiing after several of the engines ran out of fuel--I can picture the pit crew chasing after it, throwing rags at the engines still running...

Downright masochistic. No thanks.

--Ray

Robert McHam · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2007, 01:46:14 AM »

I would imagine the ground crew would be responsible for making sure his motors were topped off at the last moment before release...
Still such a plane would only be flown at certain times or events as it would require the cooperation of several people trained for such a task!
Not a plane to just fly for fun whenever you had a mind to!

Robert

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2007, 08:33:38 AM »

Amazing.

--Ray

Larry Renger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2007, 10:13:30 AM »

My favorite engine right now is the AP Wasp .061. I have 2, and they both are hotter than the Norvel Big Mig, but still pull fuel nicely through maneuvers. I just lock the throttle open with a bent paperclip. They sing a sweet 20K+ song with the APC 5.7x3 or APC 6x2 or Tornado 5x3. The box claims that they will swing up to a 7x3, but I haven't tried the bigger props yet. I may try a C*x gray 6x3 or Master Airscrew 6x3.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2007, 11:43:02 AM »

Still available? Source? Price?

Robert McHam · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2007, 07:23:03 PM »

$39.99
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSD22&P=7
Also:
http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/211280.asp
Enough parts to build one:
http://www.hobbypeople.net/part/211280.asp
$44.95:
http://www.jkaerotech.com/gaseng.htm#ENGINES

Keep in mind these are an asian knockoff of the Norvel and the biggest problem I have heard is quality control. Some are great, some are pigs. Most important to remember ( and to reduce the possibilty of creating a pig) is to dissasemble and clean thougholy. You might be surprised how much garbage will come out of it.

Otherwise they are decent performers overall.
Robert

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #27 on:** March 29, 2007, 06:22:49 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on February 03, 2007, 10:07:41 PM

OK guys, y'all be's the "little plane experts", so.............

I have wanted to build a full scale B-17 since I saw the '63 British NATS winner in American Modeler that year. I STIIL HAVE that issue! Now I have the plans!

It has a 44" WS, and used 4 Cox .049s.

Now the crazy idea........ I can very slightly enlarge the wing and tail, make he airfoil fully symmetrical (it's already pretty thick) and have a miniature version of Paul's, which should fly pretty good if I can get reliable power plants to use.

What's y'all's ideas?? I could build a test best Profile first to see.......

Weight.
Some of the reed valve.049s have dual transfer barrels. Texacos will swimg an 8x4 !,tho 7 " would be max. practical.

Have a look at the little skyrocket plan,If its not there it doesnt weigh anything .

For aerobatics the wings the heartof the thing,So probly needs a yardstick mainspar through the back of the nacelles

If that and the L.E. hold it together, the rests just along for the ride ??

M.S.