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Author Topic: Old Norvel engines.  (Read 2362 times)

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Old Norvel engines.
« on: February 03, 2012, 10:02:14 AM »
I picked up a NIB AME 0.49 (C/L version) and a NIB Big Mig 0.61 R/C engine. I assume that the Jan venturi will be a bolt on conversion for the Big Mig and that should be a good stunt engine. How does one tame down the AME 0.49. I understand that they are screamers and need lots of skill plus pressure feed to work as they should in normal guise? Can one just reduce compression and maybe sleeve down the venturi to get them to handle in a more civilised way?
  I have not checked yet, but I understand that the early ones used the Freedom head, which is not compatible with the Merlin / Cox / Galbreath heads. Just hope I don't have these, otherwise a bargain suddenly becomes an expensive paperweight!

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 12:37:51 PM »
Andrew,

The head threads and diameter are the same on early Novel engines. The Freedom plugs are the later hotter plugs. The plug diameter is larger on the Freedom plugs, but head clamps are widely available. Best price is the Merlin clamp and plugs deal for $15.

There are two head clamps available. The standard size, and a larger fin diameter for the Revlite cylinders. Strictly cosmetic, so use either if you don't care about that.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 01:11:54 PM »
Hello Bill,
Thanks for the information on heads. The 0.49 has what would appear to be standard size fins, the 0.61 has much larger fins so I presume this is the Revlite cylinder with the hard anodised aluminium cylinder. The 0.49 would be the earlier ABC setup or have I got that one wrong? Looks like a close examination is called for!

Thanks for your help,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 01:37:07 PM »
        The Jan venturi won't work for the Norvel engines. The venturi is cylindrical. The AP engines in which the Jan venturi was designed for uses the cylindrical shape while the Norvel uses a bathtub type oval. The Jan venturi also utilizes some of the stock r/c components as well. You can purchase a control line venturi and needle from NV engineswww.nvengines.com. Ken

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 02:25:36 PM »
Thank you Kenneth,
That has saved me from a heart attack! I will try the link to Norvel and see if I can get an NVA. I seem to remember that you had a go at taming an AME 0.49. I may be wrong , I usually am, but if so, did you ever figure out how to tame the little critter down?
  I have also just taken the head off the AME 0.49, it looks like a cox head. However when I tried to screw down an AP Wasp glow button retainer onto the AME, the threads bound up after a couple of turns....... The AP thread is the same as the Cox as far as I am aware. So why am I having this binding problem? I don't want to force anything.

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 03:53:46 PM »
Andrew,

I had exactly the same problem when I tried to fit an AP Wasp head on a Norvel, but it was the poor finish on the AP clamp threads that caused the problem. A second AP head screwed right on, with no effort.

Of course I'd already sent a forum message to the world stating that the AP heads would not fit a Norvel engine, when Larry R set me straight, and told me his did fit.  HB~>

We just ran an AME .049 that was given to a friend. Had to mount the tank a little higher than usual on the stand, but it drew fuel that way, and easily turned 21K on his sport fuel.

Got my finger in the prop adjusting a too short cut off needle, so I knew it was really spinning, even before we checked it with a tach!  ;D  HB~>

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 05:20:18 PM »
          Andrew, there are a few things you may need to do to run that AME. For starters, I don't know which version you have. If it has the aluminum venturi assembly, the top screen and cover can be removed. The intake is quite large for running that engine using suction ( tank setup). You just may be able to choke the venturi down using fuel tubing. Place the tubing into the venturi and let friction hold it in place and put the cover/screen back on. Make sure the tubing isn't going to get caught in the crank cut out. The spraybar is on the backside of the venturi therefore requiring a notch into the fuel tubing allowing fuel to get into the center of the tubing. You could also add more head shims as needed. You may be able to just prop with a 2 pitch or 2.5. I have some Big Mig's that actually run like some of my AME's. You could use Cox glow plugs such as the standard  the 1702 high comp is going to make it run on the same level as the stock Norvel. Keep the nitro in the 10% range using the Cox standard. Merlin plugs are going to raise your compression considerably. I find it very normal to use up to 6 shims while using the Merlin plugs. Does the engine have a muffler? If so I recommend it due to the fact the muffler pressure will assure your run is consistent while the added heat and exhaust restriction will keep the performance down a touch. I would certainly experiment with props. You may find a wide range of engine runs using different props. A Cox 5x3 black has a extreme difference than a APC 5x3. When I do certain things to engines, I try not to modify them in a way that isn't non-revervisble. This is why I suggested fuel tubing, brass tubing can be inserted as well but may need to be epoxied into place. Ken
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 06:49:03 PM by kenneth cook »

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 03:39:04 AM »
Bill and Kenneth ,
Thanks for all the information. Bill I was having exactly the same problem as yourself. I tried with some WD 40 as a lubricant and low and behold! Larry was correct it does fit, obviously a slightly dodgy thread on the AP button holder. I was also able to get the head off the 0.61 (my it was tight, I have a dent in my hand from the tool!) and that too takes a Cox thread.
Kenneth thanks for all the tips on taming the 0.49. I think I would have got around to figuring most of them out in the end, but great not to have to go through the experimentation. Looks like I shall have to buy some Cox std glowheads! That is a blow as I have been converting all my Cox engines to either the Galbreath or Merlin heads, because of cost and longevity! Oh well you can't win them all!
Thank you both for taking the time to put me right, It is much appreciated!

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 05:02:57 AM »
        Andrew, I would still try the Nelson Galbreath head. It just may take several shims to get the engine to run to your liking. I've had a few problems using the Merlin plugs. I do like the plugs, but I find them to really overcompress the engine. This may be just the head shape of the plug. My plugs have a red insulator. Xenalook sells a blue plug as well. I would have to say the different colors indicate different heat ranges. No one has been able to confirm which is which and Merlin hasn't responded to any of my e-mails. I suggested the Cox standard, I believe it may be the 305 plug due to it being ready to go. It wouldn't take but 1-2 shims to try this plug. Another alternative may be to try a glow plug adapter such as the one Norvel makes or Mecoa. A few other make this conversion as well so that you can run standard glow plugs. I've found these adapters to work, its just the performance falls off a bit. It may be worth just trying as is. The bigger problem with the AME is that it was designed around either using backplate pressure or a bladder. Ken

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 10:37:36 AM »
Thanks again Kenneth,
Just one query, I don't really know anything about bladders. I remember seeing a speed model as a kid, that had what looked like a fountain pen bladder. I don't have a clue as to how you would pressurise a bladder. If one did, wouldn't you get a spray of fuel from the spray bar, as soon as you opened the needle? As you can see, I am clueless on this one!

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 04:38:34 PM »
        Andrew , using a bladder is very simple once you have some of the basic understandings. For 1/2A engines I use low pressure surgical tubing. A very fine needle valve is a must. The stock needle assemblies generally don't work using bladders. A smaller syringe works better due to the piston being smaller. You just don't have to push as hard to fill. Using 1/2A this typically isn't a big deal, but when you get into larger engines requiring 3oz's or more it can be hard to fill. I personally use a line clip for a pinch off device. This probably answers your question on what happens when you open the needle. Once the bladder is filled I hold the inboard tip high and purge out any air that is left inside from filling. You simply do this by undoing the line clip on the tubing and the air/fuel spits out. Initially, I point the venturi to the ground and open the line clip once again and allow the fuel to start flowing. I generally watch the fuel and adjust the needle until the drips or droplets are about 1" apart. I know now the engine is ready for starting. A few drops on the piston and battery hooked up its time to give her a flip. Once the engine revs up a bit undo the line clip and let the fuel in and its off to the races. Now if the engine doesn't initially start and you left the fuel line open well you just flooded the case. This is where it can be a pain. At this point position the cylinder to the sky and try and flip and burn out the flood. Once the flood is cleared it involves the procedures like I explained . Very simple though and nothing difficult about it. It just involves practice and knowing your equipment. Ken

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 09:08:50 PM »
Kenneth,
Thank you for taking the time to explain how to use of a bladder. Its just one of those things that I have never needed to know until now. I have just about everything you mention, so I could give it a try. Mind you exhaust or crank case pressure have to be a better bet if they work!
I will try the detuning tips that you gave me earlier. I am sure they will give me a more docile if less powerful run. Come to think I still have more trouble than I care forwith the Cox TDs, It never occurred to me to use a std head, I must have quite a few head gaskets invested in my 049 / 051 TDs
I did look up the Norvel website for a C/L venturi for the 0.61. Although admin gave a number for one, putting the number in the search engine didn't work. The only venturi setup shown was suspiciously like the R/C version. I have sent a query to Norvel about it.

Thanks again,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline ray copeland

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 11:08:40 PM »
Andrew, not to worry! The AME will run on muffler pressure just fine.
 If you want to try different things go in this order:
1.  Muffler pressure
2. Bladder pressure  use soft bladder material and the norvel needle will work just fine, keep the spray bar hole clean! By this i mean if it sets for a couple of weeks just blow it out with an air hose to clear out any gunk.
3. Backplate pressure   What a pain, good luck if you decide to try this! Do not, Do not, Do not open up the size of the hole in a pressure backplate.
You may have an early version with the smaller head and glow plug, if you do , my experience is that they are a cooler plug and prone to flooding.
The merlin head and plug should do just fine on your .049, i would start out with a good break in by hand with the head removed using light oil and then run a few ounces on the bench with no head shims, add them if necessary but i don't think you will need any. My preference is omega 25% fuel, it is a synthetic and castor blend. My choice of props is the good ol cox 5x3 and the apc 6x2 or 5.5x2.  Good luck, i think you will be fine.  Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Old Norvel engines.
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 06:04:18 AM »
Thanks Ray,
I may be a bit over awed by the AME 0.49, so I will give your suggestion a try and use muffler pressure first! I will leave bladders and crank case pressure until later, assuming I can't get a good run! The engine has the small head and fins, so must be an early version, as you said. So I will watch for the cool running. I have plenty of Merlin plugs and Nelson / Galbreath heads, so I can experiment.
I have heard stories of the AME engines being set up as per book and immediately cutting out on launch. The doomsayers then went on to say that the engine must be run on crank case pressure or bladder (I checked on that!). The culprit was said to be the huge venturi plus the timing of the cylinder. I think that Kenneth's suggestion of decompressing the engine and reducing the venturi diameter will work too. Given the choice I would have preferred the Big Mig 0.49. but just couldn't resist the price ($20 NIB).
Norvel got back to me about the venturi for the 0.61 R/C Big Mig (it is listed under the 0.49 spares and not in the 0.61, so that fooled me). I was drooling over their diesel conversion head too. It had a pretty good write up and 16,100 rpm on an APC 7x3 with the pre Revlite 0.49 AME like mine, is not to be sniffed at. If all else fails then I can go diesel, well I am British, so diesel perfume on your clothes is most desirable!

Thanks everyone,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862


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