Author Topic: NOW IS THE TIME TO JOIN TOGETHER AND FIGHT (Read 5198 times)

LARRY RICE · « **on:** January 09, 2008, 09:42:56 AM »

There thousands of control line flyer's and more joining us everyday. We do not need to stand by and wait until the manufactures wake up. We need a good running .049 engine that is made right here in America! For decades we (America) have led the world in .049 technology and manufacture, now we have fallen behind. All of the world is looking toward us for a good running .049 engine, but our manufactures are asleep. NOW is the time to wake them up! Take a minute to write, call, fax or Email Fox Manufacturing and let them know what you want and what you need. If there is enough responce they WILL act. This will take all of us working together, but together we can do it!!!!

Fox Manufacturing
Address: 5305 Towson Ave.
Fort Smith, AR. 72901
Country: United States of America
Phone:479-646-1656
Fax: 479-646-1757

Larry

Chancey Chorney · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2008, 03:38:52 PM »

Hello there. I do agree. Although currently starting a build for radio, it is 1/2a, I just left the hobby shop shaking my head as this will be a turn to the dark side. Electric. But before screaming, they too deal in HO scale cars? He just showed me that a larger company in that type of hobby is apparently reproducing the Cox tethered car. I saw the brochure and it does look the same. Now it does say that it is and will be .049 powered. I wonder what will be under the hood of that thing? Looks just like the cox, and powered by a .049? All we gotta do is hope that they will release this year as was told and that engines are also available seperately. Could possibly be a line on a new .049. Never saw a picture of the engine, biut it would require a bit of tinkering to get converted but it could be another resource. Just a thought.

NEW222

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:26:05 PM »

Cox engines are slated to be made in China, The first production engines were plane JUNK. No one is planing to sell them in the US as of right now.
So why FOX? 1- They did make a good .049 in the past. 2- They said that they would make one if there was enough interest but so far no one has asked them. I told them that we needed a cheap, easy to run, engine and a high performance engine. I sell 300 engines per year and I am sure that Brodak does more.
CALL!
Larry

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2008, 07:56:06 AM »

Yes, it would be great to have a Fox .049 engine.

Dave

Bill Little · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2008, 07:58:20 AM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on January 09, 2008, 09:26:05 PM

Cox engines are slated to be made in China, The first production engines were plane JUNK. No one is planing to sell them in the US as of right now.
So why FOX? 1- They did make a good .049 in the past. 2- They said that they would make one if there was enough interest but so far no one has asked them. I told them that we needed a cheap, easy to run, engine and a high performance engine. I sell 300 engines per year and I am sure that Brodak does more.
CALL!
Larry

I agree, Larry, but you mention Brodak and they already sell their OWN .049. I do not know if they would be much of a market for Fox.

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2008, 07:59:27 AM »

I sent an email to Fox Manufacturing, asking them about making an .049-sized engine. Their website is:

www.foxmanufacturing.com

The specific address to which email can be sent is:

http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/index.php?main_page=contact_us&zenid=268fa6e55a7bb86d5a29775953cef306

Dave

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2008, 09:27:29 AM »

Bill,
John is having some trouble getting his engines in and he is trying to redesign several of his kits to to use that engine. We in America should be able to produce a simple .049 engine. Remember we made K&B .049's three different ones, Atwood's, Holland's, Cox's, O&R's, Fox's, McCoy's, Testor's, WenMac's, OK's, and so many more that the list is endless. Do you think that America can not produce a .049 engine? When I talked to John last he wanted a new .049 engine along with the one he now offers. But let's let John tell us.....if he is listening.
GOOD JOB DAVID!!!!
Come on together WE CAN DO THIS!!!!!! It will only cost you a couple of minutes.
Larry

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2008, 10:29:17 AM »

After I sent the email to Fox, I promptly received this reply:

David,

I will forward this to our owners. Thanks for the input, our customers are very important to us.

Thanks for using Fox,

Heather

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2008, 10:00:56 PM »

Quote from: david nyce on January 10, 2008, 10:29:17 AM

After I sent the email to Fox, I promptly received this reply:

David,

I will forward this to our owners. Thanks for the input, our customers are very important to us.

Thanks for using Fox,

Heather

I'm afraid that that is just a nice form response to your question. One of the problems with a new engine that it isn't a simple matter to get an engine to market anymore. The cost of developement, prototypes, etc for in spite of what you believe to be a large market, would not be justified. I remember well that Duke Fox was happy that he sold 50k Fox 15X in his first year of manufacture. The 049/07/10 didn't match those figures. Duke got tired of trying to beat Cox. Now granted Cox motors are dead but I don't think that the market is that large for just the C/L fraternity to support the introduction of a new model. We are not alone. The RC boys are also lamenting the loss of Cox and Norvel. I really do want to see another engine hit the streets but I don't think that the numbers will favor us.By the way thank John Brodak for at least making the effort to keep us supplied with an engine. I'm sure that it isn't his biggest seller.
Dennis

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2008, 07:30:31 AM »

Yes, I understand that the response from Fox may have been a standard response. But a large number of requests for a new engine might help them to decide in favor of developing it, especially if they may have been already thinking about it.

I don't know how many .049 engines Cox had recently been producing annually, but that would be interesting to know.

Dave

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2008, 10:15:05 AM »

Yes the market for .049 engines is smaller today than it was in the 60's. It is also smaller today for the .35 size engines that they currently produce. The .049 market is probably larger than the one for the larger engines as there is NO competition in it from outside manufacturers. Let's let FOX decide if they want to produce the only good .049 engine in the US or not. All I am asking is that we let them know that we want and NEED a good 1/2A engine. If no one ask then they will never know.
When I started producing 1/2A model kits I was told that there was no market for them, I have sold 4000 kits in the first 4 years and the market keeps growing. I know that 4000 engines would not be worth while to produce but I am only one manufacturer plus several there are a lot of home built planes too.
Larry

PS
I got a different responce from Fox last night, simular but different.

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2008, 12:40:04 PM »

That's great to hear you've sold 4,000 1/2 A kits in 4 years. I had been wondering about how many of those type kits are sold. I think you are helping a lot people to get into, or get back into, the hobby.

Dave

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:48:49 PM »

HERE'S MINE

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2008, 06:16:24 PM »

While you guys are on the topic of small engines. I've become very partial to integrated fuel tanks. I know many 1/2A guys have great success with balloons, bladders, clunks, and even pressurized hard tanks, but I really think the convenience of an engine/tank unit that just bolts on like a black widow or a big mig is great. I know I could have used an internal tank in my Golden Hawk, but it sure is simpler to just build the plane and then bolt on the power without having to plan for plumbing. Beyond preferences, finances are the big obstacle for me right now. (reduced hours at work and teenagers at home) Of all the guys out there that really want an engine like you guys are discussing, how many would end up actually buying one?

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2008, 11:11:26 PM »

The original Fox .049 had a tank mounted like the Cox engines had, but you could remove it if you wanted to.
As glow plugs for the Cox engines dry up the market for a new engine will grow. Add to that the influx of Baby Boomers we are looking at a large jump in Control Line modeling. With more people flying it will bring more kids into the hobby, it is like a snowball.
Larry

Larry Renger · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2008, 09:43:06 AM »

There are a number of alternatives to the C*x glowhead, some good some not so good. MECOA says they will start making a real replacement glowhead soon, and they already make an adapter head for short or long plugs. In addition the Galbreath/Nelson combo is an instant hop-up for the engines, and very reasonable ongoing costs after the basic head purchase. Next, there is an excellent High-compression head clone made by:

Gerald F Boyd
102-7700 Francis Rd
Richmond, BC V6Y 1A2

I have run his heads, and find no difference from the original.

Finally, there are diesel conversion heads made by both Davis Diesel Development and MECOA.

As far as the supply of C*x engines drying up, there should be about 20 engines out there for every active modeler, or perhaps 200 for the active 1/2A modelers, as the company made over 1 million engines per year for at least a decade declining to about 10,000 engines per year at the end. I understand that they made a run of 250,000 sets of parts before shutting down the machinery for good.

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2008, 02:01:48 PM »

Thanks for that Cox info. I was wondering where to get replacement glow heads, and you listed several possibilities.

Dave

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:37:20 PM »

Well I think I have those 20 Cox engines! Most are the recent production engines---I bought a bunch of the lousy Star Wars plastic "thingys" when Tower was dumping them at $7 for the glowplugs. Flew one---it was a hoot, first time I ever had a CL plane do a roll in level flight!
Then I bought another 10 engines when Estes/Cox was dumping them for $5 from their web site.
Then I have a few which I bought either as Black Widows, or came with some of the COX ARF's (most are the same as the production engine.
My motivation at the time was to build up a supply of glow plugs to keep participating in our "Coxy Hazel" CL race that Fred K. puts on every year.
Biggest problem I have is trying to keep the integrated tank up and running (gaskets, tubing, sealing, collapsing screw seats.......). That I would like to find a nice supply.
I remember having a Fox 09 (I think) when I was a kid. Main problem with the Fox is going to be glow plug replacements. I always thought they wer nice looking engines.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:46:01 PM »

The .09 Fox would be large enough that you could take a burned glowhead and drill and tap for a standard plug without serious deterioration in performance. The problem with really small engines is that the threads for the plug break up the cylinder head too much. That is why the Galbreath/Nelson and Turbo Plug conversions work well - smooth seal at the face of the head, not the outside.

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:55:12 PM »

larry who sells the turbo head conversion?

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2008, 08:25:00 PM »

Joey,

Try here:

http://www.hypercolor.biz/Engines.html

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2008, 04:47:41 AM »

thanks Dave ordered one for the .049 and the .074 very nice looking stuff.

George · « **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2008, 07:54:13 AM »

Something I did not see mentioned is that Fox sold all of their .049 and .07 parts to Randall Hopkins. Randall assembled them and sold them for several years and has now sold the business to Doug Martin who is continuing to assemble and sell the standard .049, FAI .049, and .07, plus glow plugs and spares.

Since Fox sold Randall barrels of parts, Fox may be reluctant to make more. Then again, there was more competition when Fox stopped production. I have the .07 from when they first came out, and two of the FAI .049's from when Randall Hopkins had them.

Here is a discussion about them on RCU: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6876651/tm.htm

George

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #23 on:** January 16, 2008, 05:04:44 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on January 15, 2008, 05:37:20 PM

Biggest problem I have is trying to keep the integrated tank up and running (gaskets, tubing, sealing, collapsing screw seats.......). That I would like to find a nice supply.

The engine below was assembled over a year ago with blue RTV sealer. Maybe closer to two years ago by now. I didn't have the gasket that went between to cranckcase and tank or the gasket that goes inside the tank. I cleaned it real good with denatured alcohol, let it dry thoroughly, assembled it with the sealer in place of the gaskets, and then let it cure for about two weeks before putting fuel in it. I've run it many times since then. It usually starts on the first or second flip. I hope it still does. It has been about two months since I ran it. When the engine came in Cox Skyraider I thought it was a terrible engine. After mating it to the tank its on now it has become a really great dependable engine.

George · « **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2008, 09:56:58 AM »

Wayne, if by inside the tank you are referring to the seal on the venturi tube, a short piece of silicone fuel tubing also works. Many cut it with a razor blade, and you may have to cut several to get a good one.

For the fit between the crankcase and tank, you probably will someday have to separate them to get junk out of the reed. You are lucky it has not yet happened.

Then again, how can one argue with success?

George

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #25 on:** January 17, 2008, 05:19:38 PM »

Quote from: George Bain on January 17, 2008, 09:56:58 AM

For the fit between the crankcase and tank, you probably will someday have to separate them to get junk out of the reed. You are lucky it has not yet happened.

George

I realise that day may be coming. I've been amazed that it hasn't happened yet. What really scares me is knowing that the reed itself may someday have to be replaced and I only have a few good ones left. I've heard of people making new reeds from old floppy disks. I may try that some day.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2008, 06:14:11 PM »

Well I will propose something heretical here

, and that simply that the future for 1/2A is electric

. I would propose 1/2A be defined as a plane with a prop equal to or smaller than 6" diameter. This would at least make an entry level plane/power plant feasible for newbees. I can imagine a good setup for one of Larry's hollow log planes. The biggest question is how big a battery one would need.

Just yesterday I saw a small rc (2.4 GHz spread spectrum helicopter (actually like a personal helicopter for a single trooper) --everything included for $60. Now the RC market is bigger, but I can't see why we don't have a CL equivalent on that cost scale.

Now for us old coots, we have plenty of glow 1/2A's of all different persuasions to last out our lifetimes, so I am not saying we don't still enjoy it. But I see no need to harass Fox to take on a what I believe is a probable commercial failure in producing a new engine.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #27 on:** January 17, 2008, 09:15:18 PM »

First of all we, at Black Hawk Models, have experimented with electric motors in our models......not feasible. In order to keep the price down you would need to use a brush type motor and they are not powerful enough to fly a plane. The second problem is that there is no noise and that can be dangerous at a flying site. In test we found that experienced control line fliers would walk into the path of the model unless they heard the engine running.
The market for 1/2a engines has always been several times larger than that of all other size engines combined. The problem with selling 1/2a engines is that there is not a high profit margin with each engine sold. It is more profitable to sell one .60 size engine than ten 1/2a engines, however the profits fall off when there are no new pilots joining the hobby, also when a new pilot starts flying with an engine made by one company they tend to continue to use that companies other products.
WHY FOX? Because they do not need to design and develop a new engine, simply bring their old engine back into production and maybe make some improvements. I have talked with FOX and they said "If there was enough request for a 1/2a engine they would consider making it" so all I am asking is, not to harass, but simply ask them for what we need. If you do not think that this is important then don't.....
Larry

Robert McHam · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2008, 10:29:30 PM »

We all have our own opinions and It is now time for me to express mine.

First, I think I have to say that letting a manufacturing company know about a product that you think they could produce should in no way be considered harassment. Then again it could be depending on how such a request be worded. The latter I doubt would be forthcoming from most modelers.

Second, I do believe that electric power could be an alternative but not a replacement at this point in time.
As for the prop size, that would depend on the type motor used. For a speed application , RPMs are important and this is where you would use a brushed or inrunner type brushless motor. These use relatively smaller dia. props compared to the outrunner type brushless motors.
An outrunner brushless will turn larger dia. props at slower RPMs and would be better for stunt or sport applications. Props of these motors can be significantly larger than we would normally see as compared to the aforementioned brushed or inrunner type brushless motors.

Still I do not see electric taking over the half A end of things. Just another way of doing it. Each type of power having its pros and cons which I will not get into here. It just is not the right thread for such a discussion.

Robert

wwwarbird · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2008, 09:31:07 PM »

Here's my vote! Do an .09 or .10 too please!

Marvin Denny · « **Reply #30 on:** January 29, 2008, 04:06:40 PM »

If they (Fox or anyone else) came out with a GOOSD 1/2 A size engine, the other diciplins (RC, FF, prop rodders, etc) would also pick up on them so they wouldn't be soley supported by CLers.
With the loss of fields and flying facilities, I would think that things would be movint more towards "small", but in CL stunt it is going the other way. 75s, 90s, 1.20s etc.
I would probably spring fgor a couple.

Bigiron

Paul Smith · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on January 18, 2008, 09:31:07 PM

Here's my vote! Do an .09 or .10 too please!

.09's and .10's and .061's and electric motors are fine for those who want them.

But if you intend to fly 1/2A and call it 1/2A, the engine size is .050 cubic inches and below.

To change the definiton of 1/2A at this time would exterminate all the .049's and 049 airplanes in North America. If you want to call soccer football and call an 09 a 1/2A, please STAY in Europe.

If you make new rules, you need a new name because it just isn't cricket.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2008, 06:49:51 PM »

Quote from: ama21835 on January 29, 2008, 04:13:27 PM

.09's and .10's and .061's and electric motors are fine for those who want them.

But if you intend to fly 1/2A and call it 1/2A, the engine size is .050 cubic inches and below.

If you make new rules, you need a new name because it just isn't cricket.

It just depends on where you live as to what constitutes a 1/2A. Europe includes an 09 as a 1/2A. Given the death of small motors we just might have to redefine our concept to be more in line with Europe. Oh, and yes I realize that this isn't Europe .
Dennis

Michael Boucher · « **Reply #33 on:** February 13, 2008, 01:25:00 PM »

We need 1/2 A propellers and fuel for these engines as well!

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #34 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:30:43 PM »

Yes, I've had a difficult time finding much of a selection of props.

Dave

George · « **Reply #35 on:** February 15, 2008, 09:53:31 AM »

APC's are great performance props but we need something like the Cox "rubber ducky' props for sport and beginners...those APC's are SHARP!

George

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2008, 01:28:25 PM »

When I was a kid, I used to use the Top Flite 5 1/4-4 nylon props, and they seemed to work very well on the Cox Golden Bee engines.

Dave

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2008, 02:46:23 PM »

OK so back to the subject. I got word that Fox is considering making a 1/2a engine. Word is that they are talking about it in their board meeting. NOW is the time to re-new the pressure and drive it home.
Larry

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #38 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:08:36 PM »

That would be great. And maybe they'll also sell props for it.

Dave

George · « **Reply #39 on:** February 18, 2008, 08:10:22 AM »

Quote from: david nyce on February 16, 2008, 05:08:36 PM

That would be great. And maybe they'll also sell props for it.

Dave

...and a muffler!

George

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #40 on:** March 17, 2008, 04:20:04 PM »

Note from Fox:

"Larry, the owners are still talking about making them again but nothing has been confirmed.

Thanks,

Fox Manufacturing"

Maybe they need more letters.
Larry

Russ Danneman · « **Reply #41 on:** March 20, 2008, 01:20:51 PM »

HELLO , NEW MEMBER HERE. I SENT EMAIL TO FOX ON NEED FOR 1/2A .HOPE IT HELPS RUSS

Larry Renger · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2008, 09:34:49 AM »

I agree that 1/2A should stay .05 and smaller. However, here in So Cal we fly 1cc Aerobatics, allowing one .061 or two .049s. Nobody has had the guts to do the twin yet, though there have been several who have thought about it. A couple of Medallion .049s would provide massive prop blade swept area, and should power a model of close to 400 sq.in.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PM »

but they wourld be foxes EEEEEEEEWWWW