Author Topic: Norvel break-in and flying (Read 5074 times)

Bill Adair · « **on:** August 01, 2007, 09:28:57 PM »

I'm breaking in a Norvel .049, which is the Revlite model, not the later AME with black fins.

Started with a Zinger 6X3 wood prop, and Brodak half A fuel, 10% nitro, and no muffler. Found it very hard to start with this prop, as the needle valve setting had to be almost spot on.

First runs turned about 10K, which gradually increased to 13K after about 10 minutes of short runs (1.5 minute), with total cool down between. Today, I switched to a Cox gray 5X3 prop, and the little Norvel came to life! It starts much easier, and is easily turning 18.3K, leaned out just enough to stop the rich two cycle sputter.

Next I'll mount an APC 5.7X3, which is the size recommended for the Baby Clown ARF.

Haven't had any luck finding a small enough clunk tank for the Baby Clown (beam mounts), and the largest Perfect tank that I have only holds enough fuel for two minutes or less. Anyone know where I can get a Perfect tank, from 3/4 to 1 once capacity? I've only seen the smaller Perfect tanks on Ebay.

Thanks,

Bill

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #1 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:07:16 PM »

Go to www.virginiahobbysport.com

Click the fuel tank button on the left side of the screen. Near the top of the fuel tank page will be a link that says "click here for the complete line of tanks by Brodak." Click the link. When the page for Brodak tanks loads scroll down for a comprehensive listing of available tanks with dimensions, volume, and shape listed. Prices are reasonable and they only charge actual shipping costs -- no handling fees.

John Crocker · « **Reply #2 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:11:44 PM »

Hey Bill,

I run a plastic 1 oz sullivan on my Norvel 049 and on a 061 Wasp from AP. I RARELY fill it full. Had a problem when I first got them with the fuel lines ("medium") but once I went down to small for the line to the venturi, no issues. I run pressure off the muffler with the medium lines cause its easier to remove for filling.

Just my $.02

Tom Perry · « **Reply #3 on:** August 02, 2007, 08:04:19 PM »

Bill,

Ray Stone (Minnesota Modeler) has had several posts here that told how to build fuel tanks from used 35mm film canisters. Ray if you have your ears on could you redirect me to the old post or explain again how you glued the oval film canisters together to make a larger one.

There have also been several posts explaining how to make/use a balloon tank.

Bill Adair · « **Reply #4 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:13:22 PM »

Wayne,

Thanks pal. Found exactly what I needed!

As many times as I've been to that VH web site, I never noticed the tank heading in the menu.

Guess I'm now getting tunnel vision, to go along with my Alzheimer's memory.

Bill what's his name

Bill Adair · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:19:40 PM »

Hi John,

Thanks for the warning on medium fuel line.

I bought one of those 1oz round tanks, and it's too long to fit the beam mount Baby Clown ARF. Haven't checked the radial mount version, but will do that before looking for another tank for that one.

What was the problem with the larger fuel line? Was it not sealing well on the venturi inlet, and tank outlet?

Bill

Bill Adair · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:38:21 PM »

Hi Tom,

Appreciate the balloon tank suggestion.

I've used them ages ago, and may go that route again, if I can't find the right size wedge tank.

My problem is that I'm a darn neat freak, and I like everything sort of picture perfect. Those Perfect wedge tanks just look so right to me.

Hey, nothing wrong with the way balloon tanks function, so I'm keeping your suggestion in mind, should the wedge tank give me problems.

I'm hoping to become a retread soon, but haven't flown C/L since 1963. Fuel tanks could be the least of my problems.

Bill

John Crocker · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:55:11 AM »

I guess it was not getting a good seal, or maybe the pressure was not high enough, not sure. All I know is it would start up and as it moved into high rev 2 stroke it would sputter and cut off. Aggravating!! You'll really like that Norvel once you get it running right. I always thought the cats meow was a buddies Cox Golden Bee, but I eat his lunch in combat with that Norvel.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:31:28 AM »

Balloon tanks: See pictures below.

You can also make hard tanks from the film canisters. I use 1/16" alum. tubing, glued into place vented as you prefer. The snap-on lid is for all practical purposes leakproof as is, don't have to glue it on. To make a larger one, cut the bottom off one canister and the top lip off the other...may have to cut little wedges out all around the opening, then force-fit one inside the other. Glue with "Goop", I think it's the same stuff as "Shoe Goo" and a dozen other products. Also use it to glue in the tubing. Dries in a hour or so, but let it cure for a few days before exposure to fuel. I can get more pics of the hard tank if you need 'em.

--Ray

George · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:04:31 AM »

Quote from: Bill Adair on August 01, 2007, 09:28:57 PM

I'm breaking in a Norvel .049, which is the Revlite model, not the later AME with black fins.

Bill, the one with black fins IS the Revlite model with the aluminum oxide hard-anodizing. The one before that has a chromed cylinder.

Quote

Started with a Zinger 6X3 wood prop, and Brodak half A fuel, 10% nitro, and no muffler. Found it very hard to start with this prop, as the needle valve setting had to be almost spot on.

They get easier to start as they break in. Also, if this is an early model, it may have the plug used before NORVEL switched to the "Freedom" plug. If so, it needs a GOOD booster to start. You can easily tell because the early version will not accept the lock-on type boosters.

Quote

First runs turned about 10K, which gradually increased to 13K after about 10 minutes of short runs (1.5 minute), with total cool down between. Today, I switched to a Cox gray 5X3 prop, and the little Norvel came to life! It starts much easier, and is easily turning 18.3K, leaned out just enough to stop the rich two cycle sputter.

There is no need to heat cycle since the cylinder is chromed, but they do need to get some time on them before they run best.

Quote

Next I'll mount an APC 5.7X3, which is the size recommended for the Baby Clown ARF.

This or an APC 6.2 are the preferred prop for the .061. You might need to decrease a bit for the .049. They do like to rev.

Quote

Haven't had any luck finding a small enough clunk tank for the Baby Clown (beam mounts), and the largest Perfect tank that I have only holds enough fuel for two minutes or less. Anyone know where I can get a Perfect tank, from 3/4 to 1 once capacity? I've only seen the smaller Perfect tanks on Ebay.

Thanks,

Bill

The tank situation has been well covered. Hope some of this helps.

George

Bill Adair · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:09:41 AM »

John,

Interesting.

I know that air leaks can cause some strange symptoms, but I wouldn't expect a larger fuel line to cause the mixture to go rich after starting. Who knows though.

Mine appears to have a fuel draw problem with the larger prop, but runs fine if I prime and finger choke it (tricky getting a finger on the venturi) until it comes up to revs. If I open the needle enough for it to draw fuel after running out the prime, it goes immediately rich and dies. Seems to be a very fine line between a too lean and a too rich needle. It's not overly sensitive to needle changes though, once it comes up to speed.

I think the smaller prop allows it to spin up fast enough to draw fuel on it's own, before the prime runs out.

Bill

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:10:00 AM »

The Norvel 049 likes a small prop load. My favorite prop, before they disappeared was the Tornado Black Magnum 5-3 cut down to ~4.75" diameter. Mine use to scream (>22krpm) on that combo and it pulled my Baby FLite Streaks and Clowns just fine on 42 foot 008 lines. I wouldn't recommend shorter lines unless you like to turn around a lot!

Yes breaking them in is a bear. The small props have almost no flywheel effect, and I am a believer in Norvel delivering "over-tight" piston/cylinder" assemblies because at least then they would have a good fit when (or if!) they were broken in. It would be tougher to have the factory QC the fit to be "just right" with a little pinch on the top. But for less than $30 (with the tank), how could you beat that deal. Before I made my half A starter, I used the Big Mig spring starter as a breakin method. Beat tryin to flip to a start.

Bill Adair · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:20:35 AM »

Ray,

Great pictures and instructions for a balloon tank. Thanks!

I may still go that route, if the Perfect tank doesn't work out.

Man, I used to have film canisters all over the place, but got rid of all my film cameras, when the wife bought me a digital many years ago. Quick trip to the photo processor will take care of that.

Bill

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:45:37 PM »

Yes Bill, any place that processes film will gladly let you haul off the used canisters, they are not re-used but just sent to a recycler who melts them down I guess. I wanted some oval-shaped ones once and a store manager let me rummage through a big drum of the things and pick out just the ones I wanted. Other places say "take the whole bag or nothing." I'm OK with either one.

Probably oughtta lay up a lifetime's supply while they're still available, may become a dinosaur quickly.

--Ray

Bill Adair · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:17:31 PM »

George,

By George, I think your right!

Just lost a rather lengthy reply to you, but the gist of it, is this.

Appears my engines and parts lists were all mixed up, apparently by the LHS I bought them from, but perhaps by Norvel. The engine I'm running had a Revlite parts list, and the box bar code was also for a Revlite engine, but the engine has the non-anodized cylinder/piston.

Checked the part numbers on all my parts lists, against the engines, and I think I've got it mostly sorted out.

"Revlite" indicates the newer cylinder/piston technology, as you correctly mentioned in your message.

Engine model numbers that appear on the parts lists, and some boxes, designate cylinder/piston type with an A or a B, and displacement, with a 4 or 6. However, an .049 that I bought when they first came out, has no model number at all. That, and the "A" series model numbers, are old technology cylinders.

A4 = .049
A6 = .061
A4R, or A6R = R/C carb.

B4, B4R, B6, or B6R = Revlite series with anodized cylinder/pistons.

AME is the Russian manufacturer, and is not mentioned on all the parts lists that I have. Norvel was the US importer, and that name appears on all the parts lists that came with my engines.

If that wasn't confusing enough, none of the six parts lists that I have, are the same!

Any corrections appreciated.

Bill

Bill Adair · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:48:55 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on August 03, 2007, 10:10:00 AM

The Norvel 049 likes a small prop load. My favorite prop, before they disappeared was the Tornado Black Magnum 5-3 cut down to ~4.75" diameter.

Hi Alan,

Interesting.

Think I'll hang onto the few Cox gray 5X3 props that I still have.

I don't trust any of the old nylon props at those high RPM's, but haven't heard anything bad about Cox props, or the APC's. Still need to pick up a few more sizes of the small APC props.

I used an electric starter on most of my larger R/C ball bearing engines, until I got a Fox .40 Deluxe. That engine started first flip almost every time, and was a real pleasure to start by hand.

I've always hand flipped the smaller engines, but this Norvel almost convinced me to look for a small electric starter.

Bill

John Crocker · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:21:05 PM »

Hey Bill,

I know what you mean about the starter. I can't get mine to finer flip worth a darn. I've got a high torgue economical starter made for .049 - .60 engines (awful wide range huh?). Had a Sullivan 1/2 A hornet starter and it burned up in 2-3 outings. The high torque starter does not have the rev that the sullivan did, but if I open the needle up 6-7 turns, it will crank it right up in a 4 stroke pattern.

Same goes for the .061 wasp I have although its not as touchy as the .049 ?norvel is for some reason

Bill Adair · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:48:26 PM »

John,

Guess I'll stay away from the Sullivan half A starters, but I suspect the Norvel starters are about the same.

How do you like the AP Wasp, compared to your Norvel? Did it break-in faster? Should be more powerful, since it's a larger displacement.

Bill

John Crocker · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2007, 05:52:14 AM »

I may have just had bad luck on my starter, but it did not have a very robust motor in it.

As for the Wasp, love it. Starts easier than the Norvel as its RPMs are lower, and has more power cause it can turn a 6X3 more efficiently. It has a throttle I had to lock open with a paperclip (kinda ugly) so you can put it in an RC plane.

I did have some trouble with the venturi screws coming loose, but a little loctite took care of that

George · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2007, 07:26:56 PM »

Quote from: Bill Adair on August 03, 2007, 05:17:31 PM

...Engine model numbers that appear on the parts lists, and some boxes, designate cylinder/piston type with an A or a B, and displacement, with a 4 or 6. However, an .049 that I bought when they first came out, has no model number at all. That, and the "A" series model numbers, are old technology cylinders.

A4 = .049
A6 = .061
A4R, or A6R = R/C carb.

B4, B4R, B6, or B6R = Revlite series with anodized cylinder/pistons.

...If that wasn't confusing enough, none of the six parts lists that I have, are the same!

Any corrections appreciated.

Bill

Actually, the A and B refer to the porting. "A" was for the AME (high performance) version, and "B" refers to the Big Mig (sport) version.

George

Bill Adair · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2007, 06:39:05 PM »

George,

I wasn't aware that the Revlite engines came with Big Mig porting?

All of my Revlites are B series engines, so if that means they are more stunt/sport friendly, that's just great.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Bill

George · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2007, 02:36:41 PM »

Bill,

AFAIK, the only difference between the AME and the Big Mig is the cylinder transfer ports. Looking into the exhaust (or remove plug) and you will find five intake transfer ports and one exhaust transfer port on the Big Mig. I believe the AME has three intake transfer ports and one exhaust. I have no idea if the timing is the same.

I say I believe because my one AME .049(RC) is packed away. I have a predecessor, the AME Zeus which has three transfer ports.

The first version of the AME had fuel suction problems because it was designed for running on pressure. This affected the Big Mig to a lesser degree. They ran better if allowed to rev-up using smaller props to maintain sufficient venturi velocity. These had no facility to run muffler pressure (pic1). The next iteration had a muffler tap. They ran better with muffler pressure (pic2).

Note that the exhaust ran straight out on the earlier type, and off to the side on the second version. Apparently the muffler can be mounted with the outlet in front or back as some of the advertisements showed it in front. I never tried it.

During that time NORVEL switched from their old plug/head to the Freedom plug/head. The Freedom plug accepts snap-on plug boosters whereas the older one does not. Perhaps this was because many were using those type boosters, plus the Revlite cylinders are non-conductive. In pic3, the top is the Freedom plug, and the bottom one is its predecessor.

Along comes the Revlite version. Another plus is that the intake now has a bolt-in venturi or carb, where the previous versions were epoxied in (pic4).

The last pic is the AME Zeus. It uses a standard 1/4"x32 short plug. The intake is large and it is usually run on pressure. I believe this was replaced by the NORVEL AME.

I hope all of this is correct. Keep me honest!

George

Bill Adair · « **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2007, 08:47:28 PM »

George,

I think your right again!

As far as I can tell (by the mixed up boxes and parts lists that I have), the letter A prefix to the part number does indeed indicate AME, and the B prefix indicates Big Mig, just as you stated.

Pulled the heads on all my engines, and only one Revlite has the three port, high performance cylinder!

I had disregarded the part number on the parts list included with that particular engine, because the engine has a fixed venturi, but the parts list describes an R/C engine!

The part number listed is A4R, which would be correct for an AME R/C engine. The parts list calls it an "AME .049 R/C Revlite" High Performance Engine.

I do have one Revlite .049 R/C engine, but it has the five port Big Mig cylinder. The Big Mig ported engines are also called Sport engines on my paperwork.

A friend ran his Norvel .061 (not sure what porting) at the field today, and it turned an APC 6X3 prop at approximately 18K RPM. It pulled his Flying Clown with authority, on 42' .008 lines. In fact, it was almost too fast! That airplane is designed for an .09 to .20 size engines, and the beam mounts had to be shimmed to a smaller width to mount the Norvel. Norvels are amazing engines!

Thanks again for the clarification, George, and the great photos!

Bill

Paul Taylor · « **Reply #23 on:** August 08, 2007, 12:28:42 PM »

Not sure what Norvel .061 I have here but I got the right tank and we do have to use a electric starter on it.

One thing I found is do not use the real soft fuel tubing. I think it breaks down and gums up the engine. They do not even suggest that you use the rubber squize bulbs to fuel it.

Ryan has this thing doing the whole B-Patteren.

Paul

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2007, 01:39:26 PM »

Paul,
I followed the Norvel caution re using only their syringes, for about two years. When it broke and I could not locate a replacement in a timely manner, I used my regular syringe. After every flying session I pulled it apart, washed it down with Windex, dried it with a paper towel and stored it, disassembled, in a zip loc bag. Never a problem, never shed pieces, never came apart, never a plugged NV or had a bad engine run. Used it for over two years then replaced it when I set up for the new plane. I am sure it would have provided more service time.
Roger

Bill Adair · « **Reply #25 on:** August 08, 2007, 06:10:54 PM »

Paul,

Looks like a nice airplane. What are the specs, line length, fuel tank brand, and capacity?

Thought I'd found a suitable wedge tank today (Acme), but it wasn't marked, and when I got it home it turned out to be the 1.5 ounce size.

You can check the porting by looking in the exhaust, with the muffler removed, or by pulling the head. Five ports, plus exhaust is the Big Mig sport porting, while the AME has three larger ports, plus the exhaust.

Roger,

The guys at the field laughed about that dissolving syringe fable!

They've been using syringes for years without problems, and most don't bother with any special syringe cleaning at the end of the day.

The old rubber squeeze bulbs I used got pretty nasty, after a few seasons of laying around in the sun. I suspect the UV did more damage to the rubber than the fuel, and being dropped on the concrete runway after every refueling didn't help much.

Bill

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #26 on:** August 08, 2007, 07:33:06 PM »

Bill,
Agree.
However, I always clean the syringe after a flying day. Started doing that long before the "Norvel" Worry Bead came in to being. I even did it with the Norvel syringe!

Roger V.

ray copeland · « **Reply #27 on:** August 08, 2007, 07:39:30 PM »

Not sure about that motor, all my norvel .061 big mig and startups have nva off to the side, that may be an ame, but they mostly require pressure unless you run them way rich. Would like to know more about that flat winger though!, looks like a lot of fun flying . Also, i own 9 norvels , including ame's and start them all with spring starters with no problem. Thanks, Ray

Bill Adair · « **Reply #28 on:** August 08, 2007, 09:58:55 PM »

Roger,

The truth is, that I also clean my syringes.

I just wipe the seal with a paper towel (or a clean rag), and put it back together. Old habits are just too hard to break!

Roger,

Wow, nine Norvels should keep you flying for a long time!

I have six so far, and a small stash of spare parts. Picked up another Norvel Freedom plug today, at a small out of the way shop that I didn't expect to stock parts. You never know.

I don't have a single starter spring, but I like flipping the little buggers anyway. The one I'm breaking in will now start on the first flip most of the time! I've found that starting it while it's still warm is almost a sure thing, though it's not much harder when cold.

Have you picked up any of the AP Wasps? I'm tempted to order one, to see how good they are. The reports sound encouraging.

Bill

ray copeland · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2007, 03:50:27 AM »

I have one AP wasp from Tower Hobbies($39.99)plus freight. So far , with the same 5x3 cox nylon prop i use for most all my flying, i can only get around 16, 500 rpm's. It is still bench mounted and i will disassemble and polish crank, inspect, and give another report in the near future. I can't imagine this engine having any more torque than a norvel , as far as i can tell it is an attempted exact duplicate.

Bill Adair · « **Reply #30 on:** August 09, 2007, 06:21:54 PM »

Ray,

That's really not all that bad, if the Wasp is not run-in completely. Was it as hard to turn over as most new Norvels?

They (AP) may be the only show in town, so I'm hoping the Chinese quality improves, as much as the Japanese products did after WW II.

Bill

ray copeland · « **Reply #31 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:48:40 PM »

Bill, break in was exactly like a norvel, just as hard to turn over at first, and then getting better with the first couple of tanks. Always turn them over by hand without the glo head a couple hundred times in oil first. I have run maybe a dozen tankfulls of fuel and no better on the top end. When i get a break , i will go through everything again, including switching glo heads and making sure everything on the inside is polished up and checking the carb operation thoroughly , then give another report. Maybe i have overlooked something , but the carb looked right and i had it pinned wide open. Just didn't have the same zip as the norvels. You may be right though, for the money and not having to deal with ebay, it may the future for 1/2 a engines. Thanks, Ray

Bill Adair · « **Reply #32 on:** August 10, 2007, 07:55:49 PM »

Ray,

Think your right about it having sufficient break-in, with that much run time.

I'm interested in anything you find to improve the performance. You might try one of the Norvel venturis in the AP, while your at it. The R/C carbs tend to have a pretty small carb barrel throat.

Bill