Author Topic: golden bee vs. black widow (Read 4720 times)

John KruziK · « **on:** January 25, 2007, 02:45:39 PM »

Can anyone tell me the difference, like power, speed, etc. they look the same except for color. thanks

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2007, 02:29:10 AM »

Apparently nobody knows...I've been watching for an answer myself.

--Ray

afml · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2007, 05:51:21 AM »

Quote from: jkruzin on January 25, 2007, 02:45:39 PM

Can anyone tell me the difference, like power, speed, etc. they look the same except for color. thanks

Look inside the sleeve, the Golden Bee is single port and the Black Widow has TWO ports, like the Tee Dee.

Wes

Wayne Collier · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2007, 06:09:50 AM »

As I understand it Cox did a lot of mixing and matching of parts especially in later years making it difficult to pin down some differences. It is very possible that not all golden bees are alike. It is fairly certain that not all black widows are alike. From what I've read and observed, in original form the golden bee and black widow differed in porting and may have differed in timing. The golden bee had a single intake/bypass port like the babe bee --easier starts and better fuel economy. The black widow had duel intake/bypass ports similar to a TD-- more power. My dad built a plane for my brother that came out a little heavy for a 1/2a. A babe bee would barely get it off the ground. Hand launches weren't much better. A black widow flew the plane much better. Keep in mind that one problem with identifying used Cox engines is people like me who mix and match parts from different engines forming our own "custom" combinations. I have a mid to late seventies product engine with a dual bypass cylinder with sub piston induction connected to a golden bee tank meaning it has a golden bee venturi and needle valve. I use TD heads and 15 to 25 percent nitro. I like the combination.

George · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2007, 08:11:04 AM »

Another $.02 worth:

The Golden Bee, as mentioned, was a single bypass engine. With the stunt-vented tank it was a step up from the Babe Bee because it would fly longer and would fly inverted. Still, it came in several iterations over its production life.

The Black Widow was an improvement with its dual bypass porting. I THINK the originals had a tapered cylinder. Perhaps Larry Renger will pop in, he designed it. Toward the last, the BW changed a lot. They went to the plastic backplate, dropped the black color, and used the Sure Start front end. The last iteration, I think, used a Babe Bee vented plastic backplate, and a non-vented black plastic tank.

Here is a pic of some Golden Bees. I think the upper right and lower left are factory stock. The lower right may have a new cylinder, and the upper left seems to be a mix of several engines. All came from an online auction site. The other pic is a Black Widow. It has a rubber spinner. I think all the rest is stock. I just realized that I do not have pics of my other BW's...guess I'll have to take some.

George

Bill Little · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:35:52 PM »

I have the last version (AFAIK) of the Black Widow on my 1/2A Snapper. It is a brand new one and has the plastic single vent tank, and a plastic backplate. I have not checked the porting in the cylinder yet. My "best" Black Widow is an ancient stock one. It still has more power than any of the other reed valve engines I have.

Bill <><

Paul Smith · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2007, 07:07:28 AM »

As started above, it relates to one- or two-port cyclinders.

Any of the Cox .049's can be switched back & forth, creating the following options:

Babe Bee or Super Bee

Golden Bee or Black Widow,

Medallian or Tee Dee.

The two-port cylinders clearly produce a lot more power, but nothing is free, they run out gas a lot sooner, too.

The Super Bee was assembled to get the P-40 Warhawk off the ground, it wouldn't do that with the original Babe Bee.

ps: The high compression "trumpet head" also gives a nice boost, compared to the low compression "hemi".

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2007, 03:13:38 PM »

Another difference is the Golden Bee's venturi size is .062" dia.
The original Black Widow's venturi diameter is .082". This gives a nominal +500 rpm boost.
It's best to check with a drill bit as many later black widows had tanks w/ the smaller (.062") sized venturi.
A golden Bee w/ a twin port sleeve & drilled out venturi = Black Widow performance.

Cheers,
Paul

Bill Heher · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2007, 04:19:49 PM »

I also remember that the Cox catalogs from the 70s used the terms Babe Bee and Super Bee when refering to the single port / dual port standard tank engines. I also seem to remember that the Black Widow was advertised as having the "Super Bee " power with "Acrobatic Tank venting derived from the Golden Bee".

Even as a 12-13 yr old kid I knew that I could use the dual port cylinder on a stock Babe Bee in a PT-19 and get better performance. I used to hunt garage sales and anyplace else for crashed P-40s, Corsairs, and the early P-51B Cox planes, these seemed to have the Super Bee engine in them.

Even the later Sure-Start and product engine cylinders can give a RPM increase, but the slit exhaust and timing changes eliminate Sub-piston induction which gives less of a gain than the earlier "Super Bee and Tee-Dee" styles.

Robert McHam · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:30:19 PM »

It seems to me that the earlier dual port cylinders were pretty much the same performance-wise.

To make a further difference in performance you needed to add a Tee Dee High Comp. head and then there was the induction as Paul mentions in his post.

In my early days my first Cox motor was the Golden Bee. I chose this motor for 2 reasons. One it had the "stunt" tank and the other was because it was so beautiful! I felt there was not another engine one could buy at any price that looked snazzier that the gold anodized tank and crankcase with the sharp contrast black color of the cylinder topped by the bright aluminum head.
Being young and rather careless on occasion I would take it apart and put it back together after a flying session cleaning it as I went. One day I couldn't find my wrenches and stuck a screwdriver through the slots to tryh and unscrew the cylinder... That was when I found how soft that metal was. I had to buy another cylinder.
I went to to the hobby shop and learned that I had the single port and that I could "soup" it up by upgrading to a dual port. I also added a Tee Dee head. I had no knowledge of being able to do anything to the induction nor did I have the tools or ability then. Still, I had one honking screamer on my Zig Zag! I would do vertical take-offs with no ground roll! I never wanted less than a dual port from then on.

I wonder though... could one gain a smidgen of power increase from porting out the ports in a cylinder? If you look closely you can see the three milling passes for each port. Pretty sloppy work if you ask me considering the high level of workmanship the rest of each part of a Cox motor received. A small carbon burr and a dremel should be able to remove a significant portion of the slop. The question remains, would you be doing yourself any increase?

Robert

Paul Smith · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2007, 06:20:20 AM »

You are on the right track.

I love Cox engines, as do many others.

However, one design flaw is that they have way too much exhaust porting and not enough intake.
Therefore, doubling the intake port results in a big power increase. If you could increase it more, you would get more power yet.

The downside is that there is very little metal connecting the bottom of the cylinder to the top, so if you mill it out more, you will further weaken the engine.

Back when Cox engines were used for CL Speed, the winners used to buy UNPORTED cylinders from Cox and cut them their own way, which was a lot more intake and no so much exhaust.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2007, 06:22:51 AM »

A better idea, and one that I have actually done, is to cut the second bypass port into a Babe Bee cylinder.

I consider a single port cylinder to be a worthless price of scrap, so if I try to cut the second port and fail, I have lost nothing.
If it works, it's a nice, new high performance cylinder.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2007, 05:49:06 PM »

Golden Bee - single bypass in the cylinder, .060 diameter venturi
Black Widow - dual bypass cylinder, .073 diameter venturi
Venom - Special crankshaft, Tee Dee piston and cylinder, high compression head, .093 diameter venturi.

Now, who can tell me what is in SPAM?

George · « **Reply #13 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:05:57 AM »

Quote from: Larry Renger on March 09, 2007, 05:49:06 PM

Now, who can tell me what is in SPAM?

Special deals and stuff to clean out your wallet...

George