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Author Topic: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes  (Read 1843 times)

Offline Bill Johnson

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Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« on: July 14, 2013, 08:25:38 AM »
I'm getting back into C/L flying and will be buying at least one if not more .049s. I've read several threads about getting the best performance out of these engines but do not have the time to be testing and modifying engines in the foreseeable future.

Looking at EX Model engines and Cox Int'l, there's a variety of engines available. Can you guys give me some incite as to what would be some good choices? The Black Widow has been recommended but even then, there appears to be different versions as many of these are made from spare parts.
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 10:13:46 AM »
For sport stunting, the Black Widow is just fine. Not enough tank capacity to do the whole pattern. The model should have between 120 and 170 sq.in. area.

Among the other Cox engines, the Medallion has good power (way more than the Black Widow) and very steady running with good fuel draw. The model should have from 150 to 200 sq.in. wing.

If still more power is needed, the Tee Dee is the thing, but I strongly recommend running pressure from that side nipple. This engine will power models from170 to 235 sq.in nicely.

That said, the NV Big Mig is an excellent choice, equivalent to the Medallion, and actually available new!

If you can give us some idea of what model you plan to fly, we can make a firmer recommendation.

Check out rsmdistribution.com for some kit ideas.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 10:24:54 AM »
Hello,
The real question is how much power do you want from your Cox 0.049? In fact do you want a Cox? There are more powerful engines around that don't cost a fortune! A Norvel Big Mig 0.049 can be had for similar money and it is a good powerful engine.
Having said that, I still fly Cox engines and have lots of them plus a boxful of spares. You are right about the Cox Black Widows. The earlier Cox engines were quite powerful. At some stage after the Estes buyout, the Black Widow spec was reduced and the engines lost some power. What to buy, well the newly assembled engines come in all flavours and colours. Look for the ones specified to do 17,000 to 19,000 rpm (Cox Int seem to spec the engines this way on their standard prop (Cox 5x4?). Expect to be paying upwards of $60. Make up your mind if you are going to use an integral tank or not (cheaper without a stunt 8cc tank). I would go for an external tank myself!

Regards,

Andrew
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 10:34:36 AM »
No ones mentioned the Brodak engine, anybody using it?

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2013, 11:35:58 AM »
No disrespect to Brodak's little engines. I have never used them so I can't comment. I think I will stick to Norvels and Cox engines. At least I know my way around them. I recently got involved with the AP Wasp and wish that I hadn't! Excellent P/Ls but the rest is very iffy.

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2013, 01:49:16 PM »
My first choice it the WingMaster like Duke has posted in another thread. Second choice is Walt Musciano's Wizard.

I'll run an external tank to fly the entire pattern. After I get used to flying CL again, I'll be building a Smoothie. 

Those NV engines are interesting! There's two versions but the NV 049 Aero CL seems to be the right one for stunt flying.

I'm not necessarily set on Cox engines, they're just about the only thing around when I started, back in the 60's. EX engines has their "Black Lynx" engine that looks like a good one been then why would you spend that much for an engine with plastic parts?

I have what I think is a related question: If you are flying a more powerful engine, can you use longer lines? That would be a plus in my mind.
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
Back in the day, when 1/2A stunt was a common event at contests, I designed and flew several similar size airplanes on TD 049 running pressure from the back of the crankcase to a metal uniflow tank, or using a pacifier tank.  I flew on 42 ft 008 lines. I used a MAS 6 x 3 prop cut down to 5 1/2 diameter.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 11:20:13 PM »
Yes, more power allows longer lines. Antone Kephart flies a baby Magician with a pressure fed, drilled out venturi AP Wasp .061 on 50' lines. 5 second laps and all the room in the world to maneuver. The model is a short kit that is on Eric Rule's "secret menu". Basically the essential laser cut parts for the model as presented in Flying Models many moons ago.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 07:32:22 AM »
I was thinking you wanted a Cox engine from your initial post and the Ex model Engines Lynx is a good choice for a reedie. People start talking about TDs and Medallions. well you can't usually buy a new one of these from Cox Int Or Ex Model Engines. Just about all Cox reedies have plastic parts so no reason to dis it!
You can buy a Norvel 0.049 or 0.061Big Mig for around $80, they are easy to use and have plenty of power for 50 feet lines and you can have a decent stunt plane. Jim Thomerson's Cheap Thrill is a great design amongst many others.

Best of luck,

Andrew.
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 03:28:24 PM »
I was thinking you wanted a Cox engine from your initial post and the Ex model Engines Lynx is a good choice for a reedie. People start talking about TDs and Medallions. well you can't usually buy a new one of these from Cox Int Or Ex Model Engines. Just about all Cox reedies have plastic parts so no reason to dis it!
You can buy a Norvel 0.049 or 0.061Big Mig for around $80, they are easy to use and have plenty of power for 50 feet lines and you can have a decent stunt plane. Jim Thomerson's Cheap Thrill is a great design amongst many others.

Best of luck,

Andrew.

No disrespect for plastic parts. Just concerned about how well they hold up under figure 9s and precision single point landings  HB~>
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 09:27:21 AM »
I'm getting back into C/L flying and will be buying at least one if not more .049s. I've read several threads about getting the best performance out of these engines but do not have the time to be testing and modifying engines in the foreseeable future.

Looking at EX Model engines and Cox Int'l, there's a variety of engines available. Can you guys give me some incite as to what would be some good choices? The Black Widow has been recommended but even then, there appears to be different versions as many of these are made from spare parts.

Regarding Cox reed valve engines, the plastic backplates on the Tanked Bees are bad about breaking mounting lugs, especially if they are over tightened. The plastic backplates on the external tank Cox reedies are tough and rarely break. If I had a tanked Bee with a plastic backplate I would hit eBay for a cheap old Bee to get the metal backplate off of. Then, if you have a dual vented stunt tank, plug the backplate nipples with JB Weld.

The external tank versions are by far the best and very dependable. Not as much to leak and cause erratic runs as the finicky tanked Bees. They come in several performance options, depending on the venturi size, piston/cylinder configuration, and glow head type. The cylinders on most of the new ones you can buy from Ex Model or Cox International  are the same, but you can choose one with SPI(sub port induction) for more performance. The only difference is the SPI version has a short piston skirt that allows an SPI gap to open under the piston at TDC. The pistons and cylinders are 100% interchangeable. As opposed to popular opinion, the newer cylinders with slit type exhaust ports perform as well or better than the old wide open exhaust cylinders. As I understand it, the old open exhaust port size was overkill anyway.

So, my advice would be to get a Cox .049 that takes an external tank, has SPI, and advertises the highest RPM operating range. Some of the prices vary only because of the pretty colors.

Larry Renger might want to confirm or dispute what I'm telling you about Cox reedies. I would defer to Larry's opinion on any points of difference.

Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 07:25:20 PM »
No problem. The above looks good to me.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 11:29:00 PM »
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and advice! It seems the EX Model Engine Black Lynx and the Cox Int'l Killer Bee both fit the bill pretty well. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get a plane together.

Thanks again!
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Buy a Cox engine for stunt planes
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 02:52:47 AM »
Those are two fine engines. They'll crank right up for you every time. The Black Lynx is the hottest one of that type Matt at Ex Models makes. And Bernie's Cox Int'l Killer Bee II is right up there too. Get some extra head shims, because the head, especially the one on the Lynx, has extremely high compression and you'll need to experiment to find out how many to use depending on your fuel, elevation, and temperature. Using Sig Champion 25%, I've used as many as five shims in the heat of the summer, and down to three in the dead cold of winter(I'm at 300' above sea level). Or with the Killer bee (Cox high comp. head), two or three is usually the answer. If you try different nitromethane percentages, a general rule of thumb is to add a shim for every extra 10% nitro. I feel you will get the best service with about 25% nitro. 35% isn't worth the added stress on it for the small gain in power.

These SPI engines really wake up at the higher RPMs that you'll get with a prop smaller than 6". I like to buy the Master Airscrew GF series 6x3 props and cut them to 5.5" or less. 5" is as small as you'll want to run on it, and will give you the highest RPMs. A lot of people like the Cox black props, commonly called rubber duckies, because they are very flexible and durable in crashes. I find them to be harder to balance than the MA props though. Balance is important at high revs and will prolong the bearing life.

One last thing to add is, with the large venturi on the Lynx and Killer Bee, your tank position is critical and really affects ease of cranking. The shortest fuel line possible is best, and keep the tank about level with the venturi height. Too low won't draw fuel as well and too high will flood the engine easily. I feel the mylar reeds are the best replacement part. Reeds will become mis-shapen after a while. And after initial break-in and a couple of quarts of fuel, keep an eye on the piston rod play. The ball socket can loosen and may need to be reset. After the first time, it won't happen so often.

Good luck, and let us know how it runs.

Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com


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