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Author Topic: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061  (Read 11569 times)

Offline Steve Thornton

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breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« on: March 09, 2015, 10:00:50 PM »
I recently bought a Norvel Big MiG .061 and the instructions say to run it with a starter for a few minutes before starting.  So I am looking for a starter for my 1/2A engines and Fox, Enya, OS engines. My ancient Sullivan Hi Torque starter, which I inherited, has not been plugged in since 1975, and is full of cobwebs, dust, and gunk.

Couple of questions; considering the fact that I am "electrically challenged," is it difficult or worth the cost to refurbish the Sullivan?   
I also read Larry Renger's post about the Miller RC and it is affordable but does it have enough torque to start a 35? I'm leaning toward the Miller, but i have a couple of large engines that need to be broken in....

What do you guys think/recommend?
Steve
   
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Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 05:26:28 AM »
Before you do run a starter on it. Read up on some the forums concerning breaking in the norvels and the use of a heat gun or blow dryer. I have broken in a good bit of them and never ran any of them with a starter first.

I would just buy a new starter.

Offline bob whitney

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 08:18:19 AM »

 i think a combination of the 2 would be best.  the whole idea is to worm it up to loosen it up a bit as it comes very tight .then hit it with short bust's with the 1/2 A starter .a small exhost prime will help

Roger V has the best running Novel's in this area, maybe he will chime in
rad racer

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 08:32:12 AM »
Well that's a new one. They used to say to turn it over 100 times by hand and not to use a starter :)


2.      Always break in cold first - remove the head and a glow plug, inject no more than 1/4 teaspoon of oil into the intake and the same to the cylinder  and spin the crankshaft with a starter for one or two minutes.

I still wish Norvel made a .60.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 11:11:38 AM »
  To break in a Norvel using a starter, all you need to do is remove the head, put a few drops of fuel in the cylinder, then hit it with the starter for 5 or 10 seconds. Then flush the cylinder with fuel and repeat. Put the head back on and see if it will flip over with the spring starter. If not, repeat the electric starter process again. This is the method we use to break in engines for the KidVenture models we use at Oshkosh. The method in the directions works, but takes forever. The starter method greatly shortens things. Some of the engines we are using have an untold number of flights on them and still run just fine.
   Norvel never did make a .60, or do you mean the .061? It is still made but is called the NV and can be purchased direct on line. Art Johnson was able to buy some parts we needed like spinners and prop studs from them quite easily. My son Sean bought a couple of engines from the new company that way. The engine manufacturing tooling and such was sold a few years ago and brought back as NV. Try searching "NV engines" and see what comes up. There may be info on the forums here also.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 11:33:31 AM »
Steve I hope you do NOT follow the run in instructions that came with the engine.... The Norvels are notoriously tight when new and non engine folks were sending too many back cuz they could not get them started--- so new Norvel company re-wrote the instructions, not telling the customer that the method reduced the life of the engine significantly.

From new, never slow turn the engine over...all oil is squeezed out and Piston seizes at TDC...If you must play with it, flip it over briskly

Small prop, (I use a cox 5x3 rubber ducky trimmed to 4.5") 25%~35% nitro 20%~22% oil (50/50 oil blend is fine), put extra shims under head or better yet throw on an old low compression Cox head.

Heat gun the top of CY head until hot to touch, prime and fire the baby on the prime only...Play with the prime so you figure out what works best before hooking up the tank.  I don't put any fuel in the exhaust port, just two to three drops down the venturi and back turn the prop...you may prefer exhaust, or venturi, or combination;  find what you like that gives a consistent light off when you start it....when new there is too much pinch to back flip start, later when broke in some, I find back flip to be more reliable for first flip starting

 Heat, prime, and run rich only a few seconds, then screaming fast for a minuet, shut off let cool, repeat a few times.

Put stock head back on or reduce shims and use heat gun and fire it up and run  screaming fast a few times and she will be ready for flying.... I generally do 10 heat cycles before mounting on the plane

I guarantee a electric starter will bend the rod when new because of the very tight top pinch...and if you do use a starter later, make darned sure she is not flooded!!!!

NOTE the QC of NORVEL in the past has been real good to real bad...Many of these (I have about 10 of the .049 and .061s ) have too tight a crankshaft to Crank case clearance and when they heat up start to seize the crank ..... if yous is tight, polish the front of the crank shaft

I do this to each new NV I buy.... I generally open up all new engines in last 15 years cuz I find too much swarf even in so called name brand high dollar engines
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 02:22:47 PM »
I bought quite a few of them that people sent back off the old Norvel site. They used to resell the returned ones at nice prices.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2015, 08:52:38 AM »
Bud..I miss those "sales"---(grin)

 I picked up 5 of the NV AERO .049s that way at $28 each

The Aero .049 is short nosed combat variant and they all are screaming fast and durable little engines
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2015, 01:46:35 PM »
Fredvon4 is right on point.
Here's a post I wrote on the subject some time back.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=32566.msg324763#msg324763
DON'T PANIC!
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Offline Steve Thornton

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2015, 02:24:13 AM »
Thanks for the responses gentlemen.  I ordered a spring starter from NV, and saw that Sullivan is selling the Hornet starter for 1/2A and they are pretty reasonable, but the spring seems like the preferred method.  What do you think?

Steve
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Steve Thornton

Offline ray copeland

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 03:46:09 AM »
Steve,  I believe the big mig comes with the freedom plug, if you have that or a hot Merlin plug , or better yet a Nelson set-up the spring starter works quite well once you have gotten the engine broke in enough to turn over easily. Two drops of fuel in the venturi and one in the exhaust port if your not using a muffler and it should start right up!
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2015, 10:12:31 AM »
I have the Sullivan 1/2a starter and like it a lot.

The Norvel springs are finicky and distort if wound too tight;  Until I learned to heat the head/cylinder before starting a new NV, I mangled two of the springs.

All my NVs are set up for bladder with Texas Timers fine thread NVAs and flooding is always a problem. I try to be consistent with process for one or two flip starts but always have the starter at the field for days when the danged thing is contrary.

Getting in a hurry usually costs me a bent rod.... in fact about three a year....I just buy a few new or used engines as most cost effective than the parts sets

Reminds me that I have not visited the NV site in a while
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Steve Thornton

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 03:42:28 AM »
That's a whole lotsa information! Thanks for all the input Gentlemen.  Fred I appreciate the recommendation of the Sullivan Hornet, I will order one tomorrow. Rusty that is a great post and I also liked your video on bladder tank set up.  Sure am glad I didn't flip my new engine over while I watched TV as is my usual habit! I'll let you know how the break-in goes next week...I hope.
Thanks again
Steve
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 11:20:04 AM »
Yeah, good point posted above; the springs only like to be turned 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Not a full turn or more like the Cox. Also, the mounting method is a pain in the ass and gets in the way of your aluminum engine bearers and offset shims if you use them. I just leave it hanging loose until after the engine is bolted down tight, and zip tie the back end of the spring to the bottom beam of the plane. I do it sort of like that on the test stand too. This method allows you to use these springs on other makes of engines too. I know it works on the Brodak, probably the Cox, and I know it does not work on the MP Jet. But not many are even familiar with the MP Jet. Czechoslovakian hi perf 1/2A engines.

When you flood it, you'll be really glad you bought a spring.
Rusty

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Offline Steve Thornton

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2015, 12:34:04 AM »
Thanks Rusty,
I got a spring last week but have been too busy at work to get into the shop.  Got my Hornet starter and the wing installed on the Baby FS. Just a few days off and I'll be ready to paint.
Steve
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2015, 01:21:17 AM »
Great, Steve. I'm looking forward to seeing your new Streak. I love those planes. Bob Zambelli watched me fly my Norvel Big Mig powered BFS and said it was the best flying Baby Streak he'd ever seen. Coming from the Z, that's quite a statement. And compliment too. But it's nothing special, just an old beater, but built straight with a superior power plant on a bladder. I use the muffler and a 5.5 or 5.25" Master airscrew prop. It's a cut down MA 6x3. If I have to cram it into my small circle by the house on 35' lines, an APC 6x2 tames it and it's still stupid fast but manageable. Fun. Pure 1/2A fun, it can't be beat.
Rusty
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Offline George

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2015, 07:20:21 AM »
...Also, the mounting method is a pain in the ass and gets in the way of your aluminum engine bearers and offset shims if you use them. I just leave it hanging loose until after the engine is bolted down tight, and zip tie the back end of the spring to the bottom beam of the plane. I do it sort of like that on the test stand too. This method allows you to use these springs on other makes of engines too. I know it works on the Brodak, probably the Cox, and I know it does not work on the MP Jet. But not many are even familiar with the MP Jet. Czechoslovakian hi perf 1/2A engines.

When you flood it, you'll be really glad you bought a spring.

Rusty


Do the springs still have a little 90 degree bend at the engine mounting end? Originally the springs came with the Big Mig Startup. The tank mount had a groove for the wire to fit under the mounting lug and the Startup engine had a hole drilled in the mounting lug. This held the starter spring in place very well. If you get a Big Mig with an extra hole in the right mounting lug...it originally was a "Startup".
The Startup had the spring, engine, and tank mount ready to mount. I don't think there was any difference in the actual engine except the hole in the lug. I bought both the .049 and .061 Startups to get the tanks for break-in. Used the spring only on the Startups since the other NORVEL (Northern Velocity) engines did not have the hole.
I bought most of my NORVELs before SIG became the dealer. I have not tried the NV engines yet.
I think the best break-in run is to run it from the start at just the rich side of peak. Fast running lessens the tremendous load imposed on the connecting rod bearing while the Revlite piston/cylinder smoothes out. Once it is broken-in fast, it will impose less stress when running slow. Of course there is never only one way. Do what YOU think is best.

Good luck with your NORVEL or NV engines.

George
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 07:45:41 AM by George »
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2015, 08:11:32 AM »
All three of my Revlite era engines have the hole in the mounting lug. They were given to me and all but one were sitting up for several years, the other was un-run. I think they pre-date NV. I have heard of a case or two of loose fitting P&Ls that couldn't be resolved with returning and replacing. Maybe QC ain't what it used to be.

Even the older ones sometimes suffered from a too-tight crankshaft fit and after hours of running would begin to sag in flight as if it was overheating lean, but it was actually aluminum fused to the crankshaft causing it to seize. A good polishing with the crank chucked in a drill press is said to fix it. I have one that shows that symptom but I haven't tried that fix yet. Running on a bladder is self protecting from lean sagging because if it gets hot and slows, the rush of cold fuel instantly floods in and cools it. It might start surging, but it shouldn't hurt it. Just richen a bit for the next flight.

George, you're right, my screaming lean break-in statement might have been misleading, I never meant to go lean past peak, so if you can hear a crackle you know you're on the safe side of overheating, being that bench running is usually done with a tank on suction. As you said, the idea is that it needs the heat to keep the P&L in it's happy fitment.
Rusty

 
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2015, 10:12:27 AM »
Back in the day before cheap electric starters, when we wanted to loosen up an engine before actual running, we would chuck up the shaft in an electric drill.  That would still work today.  Just give it plenty of oil.
Paul Smith

Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2015, 05:48:00 PM »
Paul, the thing about the Revlite Norvels is that turning them through the pinch cold will damage the compression. It's a good idea to get a starter spring like we mentioned above. They're a bit different from other ABC\ABNs. Lots of people have learned that the hard way.
Rusty
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Offline Target

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2015, 03:11:28 PM »
I have a really old (20years?) Norvel engine and I don't know if it is an .049 or .061, and if it is an AME or a Big Mig.
How can I tell which it is?
Its R/C and I would like to convert it to C/L. I think an venturi is available on the website, but looks to be sold out, but I would like to identify which model of engine I have first.
Can you help me, Rusty or one of you familiar with these little beasts?

This engine was bench run years ago and seems not to suffer from any of the problems of tightness at TDC you are mentioning, since I pulled it out of a bag and cleaned it up.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:12:13 PM by Chris Behm »
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2015, 07:19:41 PM »
Remove the head. The sealing band on the .061 is quite narrow.  If there are 5 bypass ports, it is a Big Mig. The AME only has 3 larger ones.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline Target

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2015, 08:11:12 PM »
Thanks, Larry.
I'll check it out when I get home.
Is the copper washer much narrower than that of a cox .049 then?
That way I will have something to compare with.
I could get you a cylinder ID as well.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2015, 09:17:02 PM »
Chris, I interchange the Cox and Norvel copper washers, but compared to Larry Renger, Paul Gibeault, and the precision guys, I'm a just hack, fun flying 1/2As. Nowadays I only do that to relax before or after flying pattern after pattern, after pattern... But a Baby Streak and a Big Mig .061 sure do make me smile.
Rusty
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Offline Target

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2015, 09:34:13 PM »
I appreciate all info, Rusty, coming from a fun flyer, or a competition guy. I can sift through bits and pieces to get where I want to go, so it's all good.
I'll be gone for 2 weeks anyhow. Time to burn collecting info, I say.

R,
Chris
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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2015, 10:04:17 AM »
On the nv forum, I found to my delight that the engine I have is a .061. I also found out that the venturi fits both sizes and model of engines, and that the needle from the carburetor fits the venturi.
So, for $15 + shipping, I can convert the rc engine to control line.
Now I just have to wait for the venturi to come back into stock.
The number on the side of my engine is 1.0 and that is how the displacement was determined.
Thanks for the help, gents.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline George

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2015, 10:27:57 PM »
On the nv forum, I found to my delight that the engine I have is a .061. I also found out that the venturi fits both sizes and model of engines, and that the needle from the carburetor fits the venturi.
So, for $15 + shipping, I can convert the rc engine to control line.
Now I just have to wait for the venturi to come back into stock.
The number on the side of my engine is 1.0 and that is how the displacement was determined.
Thanks for the help, gents.
 

Chris,

One thing I didn't see mentioned is that many of the pre-Revlite NORVEL engines had the venturi or carb epoxied in place. If this is the case you may have to heat the crankcase to soften the epoxy, then epoxy the new venturi in place.

George
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Offline Target

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2015, 10:44:10 PM »
Roger that, George.
I had considered that and will make it happen as necessary.
I have to be able to get the venturi first.
Also waiting on the rsm mini Stuka for the engine.
It all should come together in due time (I hope).
Thank you for the reminder.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Target

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2015, 09:48:41 PM »
I have my Norvel parts....
Does anyone have a solid idea of what size tank I need to fly the full stunt pattern on a Norvel .061 running on a vented tank?
1.5oz has been suggested to me.
Thanks,
Chris
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2015, 10:37:05 PM »
1.5 oz is probably a good start. Mine run considerably longer on a given load of fuel than a Tee Dee will. It's different for everybody depending on your altitude and other conditions. I usually feed them Sig 35.
Rusty
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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2015, 06:10:50 AM »
Thanks rusty.
I think I'll go with the 1.5 oz tank.
Found info that matches yours stating that 1 oz would be good for the Norvel, but more needed for a Cox.
You never know, I have a couple of medallion's also.
Thanks!
Regards,
Chris
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2015, 06:47:39 AM »
Medallions are sweet. I have two I need to press into service. They run great on suction. If you want to do some serious slinging and wringing, slicing up the sky, you will definitely want to consider putting your .061s on a bladder. Then you don't have to turn so many circles, just stand there and amaze your buddies. I love 1/2A. I want to get back into it more than I've been lately. And some Junior size too, I've never flown one.
Have fun.
Rusty
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Re: breaking in a Norvel Big Mig .061
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2015, 08:59:01 AM »
The Stuka Leprechaun is next up for me....that's where the Norvel is going. Trying to avoid the bladder, and run it uni-flow.
Stay tuned....
R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956


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Tags: Big Mig  break in  .o61