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Author Topic: Black Widow low compression?  (Read 1201 times)

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Black Widow low compression?
« on: July 20, 2011, 05:29:43 AM »
Hello,
  I have just made an eBay purchase of an unrun Black Widow. It is in mint condition and has no signs of ever being run. It has very low compression compared with my other Black Widows.
  It is fitted with the wide exhaust port and has sub piston induction, it sports an aluminium spun stunt tank with the black plastic backplate. It has the later spring start mechanism with the grey plastic fitting.
  From my somewhat sketchy knowledge, this would place it as being pre Estes manufacture. I am therefore very surprised at the poor compression, even with a little afterrun oil in the cylinder, the compression doesn't improve. There is no leaking sounds if the piston is turned over. I know that the Estes quality was not up to the original standard, but this engine would appear to be the real McCoy (!).
  Is the compression likely to improve when run in? Just very curious as this does seem to be an authentic original Black Widow and I have no reason to suspect any skullduggery on the part of the seller!

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 09:40:22 AM »
Does the head match your other engines?  It may have acquired a low-performance head.
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Offline Bill Barber

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 10:27:36 AM »
   My thought is run it and see if the compression improves . Do the  break in where on each run you
peak for a few seconds and then back it off . Each  run you progressively peak it longer , my two cents .
      Bill
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 10:58:59 AM »
Is it leaking, or is it just low compression?  Figure out where the leak is, if so.

If it's leaking at the piston/cylinder seal, then it's hurting bad.  If you have some spare pistons you may want to try finding one that fits better.  Otherwise running it in is probably the only way to fix a poor piston/cylinder seal (and I wouldn't give you very good odds).  Of course, if it's leaking around the head/cylinder seal, or around the glow button seal, then you've got a more easily correctable problem.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »
Hi Andrew,

Definitely not a normal condition for a new Cox engine. The cylinder/piston may have been switched, or the head gasket lost, or damaged.

Every new Cox engine I've ever handled had good compression right out of the box, but I always lubricate it before checking.

Sure Start cylinder/piston sets are available from Bernie in Canada, and many other sources, should you decided to replace yours.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 12:54:17 PM »
Hello Tim,
  Have had the cylinder off and it appears to be the correct one,but I can't see a number stamped on it. It has two bypass ports but they are parallel at the top, I believe the venom (?) has a stepped top to the ports. The exhaust port is the large single slot rather than the later dual slit type. The barrel and piston are in excellent condition with no sign of any scoring, even the normal pattern that you would see after light running. The copper plated top of the piston is shiny bright. There is a head gasket in place and looks good, the head and barrel were tight. So it all looks good, rightdown to the sub piston induction
  The only problem that is apparent is a slack ball joint. I have had this problem with the later Estes assembled product engines that were being sold for $4.95 a year or two back, but never with a genuine Cox assembled engine. I realise that a slack ball joint points to the engine having been run, but in all honesty this does not appear to be the case here.
  My hearing isn't that good, but I can maybe hear a slight leak when turning over by hand, but I can't be absolutely sure of this (old age has its problems!).
  It all looks as though this is a "real" Black Widow and not one of the later Estes so called Black Widows. Maybe I just have a dud engine, I suppose it did happen with Cox, but fortunately this is the only case I have come across. I will check with some soap solution to see if the head glow seal is OK and also around the head gasket. If this doesn't show anything up then it must be a poor selection of piston and cylinder. I will try some spare pistons that I have around somewhere. Other than that I will try running it in and see if it does get better, but like you, I have my doubts!

Thanks,

Andrew.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 01:08:24 PM »
I have a ton of garage-sale 049 engines, and there is some variability between piston and cylinder size.  By and large its not enough to make things not work, but it is enough that you can improve performance by hand-selecting pistons to match cylinders.

I also have one 09 and one 15, both of which have out-of-round cylinders and pistons.  I've never managed to damage an 049 that way, yet the 15 died in the hands of my cousin and I after only a few flights from new.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Barber

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 01:42:06 PM »
   Yes you could get a new piston and cylinder from Cox International for $10 , or you try and run the
original  P/C and see if they improve compression.
 
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 01:58:28 PM »
Problem Solved!
  I have just used some soapy water around the central post of the glowhead. Guess what? A huge leak around the seal! Thanks for suggesting that one, it would have taken me hours to get round to trying that, if it even occurred to me!
  I am glad I have stripped the engine down and found the sloppy ball joint, otherwise if the head had been good, I may well have tried to run it!
Thanks everyone for helping me sort out the problem so quickly! I have sorted the ball joint and a new head and I now have a very nice little engine, lots of compression!
  Are the Nelson plugs still available to fit the Galbreath head? If so, I will go this route.

Thanks again!

Andrew.
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 02:11:58 PM »
              Andrew, what I have to offer is truly based on my personal experiences. I like yourself would be concerned with what your experiencing. I have purchased some engines from the late eighties that had the same very symptom your running into. The copper head gaskets can be very problematic at times. I've had brand new engines with three head gaskets in the cylinder as well. Be sure to check that none are stuck together. It surely wouldn't hurt to lap the head on a piece of glass to true it up.   The Black Widow didn't come with the high comp 1702 head so adding this head would surely boost it. My best running Black Widows though had nearly no compression at least that's how it felt but they were truly screamers. I had a 1980's Baby Bee which has the familiar Sure Start configuration which had nearly no compression. I ran it rich regardless for several flights and it still runs well to this day. If your engine is starting and producing rpm's I would just keep running it. I would also check to see if your reed valve is closing off properly and not leaking down. You can remove the tank and place your syringe onto the venturi nipple and check for positive and negative pressure. If it's leaking at all when you draw the syringe back then this could make the engine feel weak in compression. I've also used the Davis Diesel devarnishing brush. This works very well. You place the brush from the bottom up while twirling the cylinder in a up and down fashion. They claim it puts micro scratches in the cylinder.  I use it consistently on my TD's. Davis Diesel states it allows oil to fill in these scratches and boosts power considerably. I guess its similar to a ball hone the way it puts cross hatch marks on a cylinder. Regardless of what they claim, I've used this brush with success on all my Cox engines and it only costs a few dollars. Cox used to state in their directions to use 000 steel wool . Ken
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 04:02:58 PM by kenneth cook »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Black Widow low compression?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »
Andrew,  tr Melvin at  MBS Model Supply.   That is where I get my Nelson plugs.  I did hear a rumor that Henry is retiring and have not confirmed it yet.   Will have a chance to talk to Melvin next weekend.  Hope someone takes over the Nelson plug manufacturing as I have too many engines to convert to another head. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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