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Author Topic: All American Jr.  (Read 1130 times)

Offline bob werle

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All American Jr.
« on: August 31, 2008, 01:18:21 AM »
I am working on an almost All American Jr..  I am making it as a profile.  I found the thread on the problems withthis design on take off but I still like the airplane.  Would engine offset help keep the inboard wing up on take off? 
i wanted to do it as a profile first to simplify the build in case I can't keep it out of the ground.  I didn't want to add weight to the outboard wing and am looking for a way to keep the wing up.
The weigh span is 26" ,14" inboard and 12" outboard and 5-1/2" chord S?P #^ #^ #^
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 03:40:15 PM by bob werle »
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 06:53:31 AM »
I have one full fuselage I built for a Torp 09.  I think I added a little weight to the outboard wing to balance the weight of the longer inboard wing and leadouts.  It takes off with no problem. 

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 02:19:45 PM »
The dimensions given work out to about 117 sq. in. max, seems a little small.  Bumping it up 10% or so, to say 30" span, 6" chord, gets you a much more stunt-able 180 sq. in.

I would definitely use tip weight to counter the added inboard weight (leadouts, etc.).  Wouldn't take much, but makes a big difference. Also 5 d. or so engine offset would be good.

Just my observations. the All-American presents a unique look; a good choice.
--Ray 
Roseville MN (St. Paul suburb, Arctic Circle)
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 09:10:19 PM »
Since it is only remeniscent of the original, being a profile and all, why not just make the wing more symmetrical?   VD~
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline bob werle

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 09:51:50 AM »
Thank you all for your input.  I will just put in the wing weight.   I think that the wing offset is part on the designs charm.  To change it would be like having a ringmaster with a square elevator.  If I can fly the profile I can invest the time to build to full body ship.  I don't fly that well and would hate to stuff it after ail the work.  The profile will be a quicker build and faster.
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Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 08:53:11 AM »
When flying All Americans back in the 50's we used to throw a rag over the outboard wing tip. That would keep the OB wing back and would fall off once the ship got airborne, or nearly so...


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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 11:16:30 AM »
The rag is not part of the plane, but I wouldn't care to try that in competition.  You might get DQ'ed for dropping parts.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 05:48:17 AM »
Some day I'll spend the time telling the story of the first All American Senior I ever saw and tried to fly for its builder.  "Amazing Stories" here at the Hangar is where it belongs.  It's a long story, but in the 54 years that came after that, I've met with and flown several more, with more success.  Grass field takeoffs are the booger bear, however, and that loose rag idea would probably have saved that first one. 

Offline bob werle

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2008, 03:43:47 PM »
I thought I should show how far this project has come.  I had pictures of the All American Jr. in the camera for a week now  I am now starting the color blue wings white fuse & red trim.
Thanks again for all your input and I will put out a finished photo

Bob
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Offline Mike Lauerman

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 09:22:55 PM »
Hi Bob and gang!

Gosh, the wingspan differential is quite excessive (in percentage of span) compared to the fullsize plan. I would favor the difference as 1", rather than 2", in this short span.
The fullsize one I built was decidedly 'staggered' on takeoff, compared to all the others I've built, borrowed, and flown.
  Try the rag...then consider the lessening of the 'stagger'. (just a 'feeling'...but I go more on analysis)

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 10:44:56 PM »
I expect that Bob is trying to replicate the 3-view of the original.  As such, of course the dimensions are way off base by modern thinking.  At the time, line tension was the big bugaboo.  Palmer's differential flaps, the extreme engine offsets and rudder deflections were symptoms of this miasma.  We have since learned that minimum drag to maintain speed, coupled with the correct lift on each wing yields a plane that will turn without staggering in one mode or another.

All that in consideration, if you want an authentic OT model, you buy into with all the wrinkles, warts and crotchiness of the original, or go fly something else.  For example, scale down an Impact, Vector, or other modern ship and be done with it.  Anyone can "improve" the old designs, but what is the point?

That is what OT and Leprechuan are all about, nostalgia!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2008, 07:14:06 AM »
I recently acquired a set of plans for an "Infant All-American" drawn by "S. Fletcher", 1991, in England. Very similar in size, 24.5" span, about 120 sq. in., but with a full fuselage.  I'm thinking of building one "as drawn" for a Production Cox .049, then scaling it up about 20%--30" span, 180 sq. in.--for an .061. Maybe I'll call it a "Baby All-American".  It certainly has a unique look.
--Ray 
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Offline bob werle

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Re: All American Jr.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2008, 09:32:48 PM »
The original plans I started with was a full fuse design.  L just cut corners to save time to see how the design will fly for me.  If all goes well I will then build the full fuse design #^ #^ #^ #^ #^
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