Author Topic: 1/2A fierce Arrow (Read 81962 times)

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #350 on:** March 02, 2007, 04:43:19 PM »

LG notch will be no problem, no. I will need to fill it with a small block after sheeting the LE, since it otherwise will leave a hole directly into the interior of the wing, not good, even a small one. But, no problem. "Simplest thing in the world, anyone could do it." (What movie is that from?)

Glad to hear both packages got to you guys. Roger pointed out (enjoyed the phone conversation by the way, Roger) that fuse former F3 will have to be narrower than plans call for; just make it identical to the upper part of F2. Width change, if any, of the others behind that TBDL (I surely love that acronym!).

Finish that LA Heat, Frank...Frankenstone Arrow is calling you!

--Ray

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #351 on:** March 02, 2007, 05:29:30 PM »

Page 8...a new record.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #352 on:** March 02, 2007, 07:14:39 PM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on March 02, 2007, 05:29:30 PM

Page 8...a new record.

I thought I'd be able to have the weekend free for modeling work....but there are people that want me to do stuff....I plan to finish painting the bottom of the wing on the Heat then I'll get to work on the Arrow. Yours looks so good Ray.....I gotta have mine too.

PAGE 8------since we started this online building our threads have certainly gotten loooooooooonnnnnnnnnggggg. I wonder how many people besides us are stopping by for a look?

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #353 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:19:29 PM »

I thought I'd be able to have the weekend free for modeling work....but there are people that want me to do stuff.....

[/quote]

Ain't it terrible how life keeps getting in the way?

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #354 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:29:11 PM »

Ray,
Great photo's! Thanks.
re Landing gear. We might want to consider a small gap in the sheeting and a small piece of flexible/soft foam (ie AC line insulation) to absorb some flexing, on the outboard side of the LG leg as it might flex outboard into the sheeting and damage same, "IF" we land hard ( I know - we never do that!).
My F-1, F-2 and Carry Through are done.
MM next.
Roger

frank carlisle · « **Reply #355 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:33:52 PM »

the phrase----render unto Ceasar---comes to mind. When I got off work today I stopped by the bank and the post office payed all my bills for the month and figured "O.K. the rest of the month is mine. NOT!! The phone has been ringing constantly. Plumbing and electric work is on the menu for tomorrow. First I'll visit with Jan and get a first hand view of this spinner. He does some mighty fine work. If the spinner is as cool as I think it will be and if you want one.....I'll send you this first one since you'll be closest to using it. What prop are you going to be flying your "Frankenstone Arrow" with?

frank carlisle · « **Reply #356 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:35:20 PM »

Quote from: Roger Vizioli on March 02, 2007, 08:29:11 PM

Ray,
Great photo's! Thanks.
re Landing gear. We might want to consider a small gap in the sheeting and a small piece of flexible/soft foam (ie AC line insulation) to absorb some flexing, on the outboard side of the LG leg as it might flex outboard into the sheeting and damage same, "IF" we land hard ( I know - we never do that!).
My F-1, F-2 and Carry Through are done.
MM next.
Roger

Pictures Roger,pictures!! Photograph everything! Post all photoes!! Let's see them formers.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #357 on:** March 03, 2007, 01:35:18 AM »

Roger, that's an excellent idea...course Frank won't need it because his gear is entirely out of the wing. But I'll remember that when I get to sheeting the wing. And I "amen" Frank about the pictures.

Frank, at this point I'm thinking an APC 6x2 or 6x3. I like the performance of the APCs although they seem a little brittle. And I wish the hole was a little smaller; I usually put a short piece of fuel line on the prop bolt to help center it. Does the spinner need to be trimmed to fit the prop?

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #358 on:** March 03, 2007, 03:44:36 AM »

It's quite possible that some trimming will need to be done on the spinner to fit the prop Ray. I've only had one or two spinners that didn't need to be trimmed.
Jan will bring the spinner over today and then I'll know more bout it.

Roger I can't stress the importance of pictures enough.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #359 on:** March 03, 2007, 06:58:25 AM »

Frank, Ray,
Yes, there will be pictures. I want to have a little more than a pic of F-1, F-2 and the carry through when I post them. Rain today, s/b time to cut some wood "and send pics"

Ray, My favorite prop for the Norvel .061 is the APC 6x2. It allows the revs the small engine wants, ie consistent engine runs and does not load it down.
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #360 on:** March 03, 2007, 07:32:27 AM »

Quote from: Roger Vizioli on March 03, 2007, 06:58:25 AM

Ray, My favorite prop for the Norvel .061 is the APC 6x2. It allows the revs the small engine wants, ie consistent engine runs and does not load it down.
Roger

Yup, I agree, I use the 6x3 or 5.7x3 when I want a little more speed, but the 6x2 seems perfectly matched to the Norvel. Now for a combat plane, ya just gotta go down to a 5" dia--the Cox narrow blade 5x4, or paddle blade 5x3, both work well for lots and lots of mph. I even cut them down to 4 1/2" or so for the .049. Norvels are hi-rev engines.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #361 on:** March 03, 2007, 04:52:26 PM »

Fellows---------I now have the prototype spinner in my hands.

Weight---about a quarter ounce.
Size------1 1/8 inch
Material--Aluminum with a stainless steel bolt.

This will be a dedicated spinner. It is made for the Norvel. There isn't much room in there for a lot of variances so Jan will need to know what prop you plan on using and he will make yours to fit that prop and engine. This has to do with hub thickness and bolt length.
There are 5 pieces to the spinner and each one was hand made by Jan. He told me it was time consuming and that if you guys want them he'll make them for $25 each. He's only willing to make two more-one for Ray and one for Roger. Jan also said that it could take several weeks to get them done.

So here are pictures......I like the spinner.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #362 on:** March 03, 2007, 04:56:21 PM »

I like it! Count me in...APC 6x2 prop. Where do I send the $25?

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #363 on:** March 03, 2007, 05:19:14 PM »

Ray,
I just called Jan and told him to check in on the thread. He's registered but hasn't ever posted, so let's wait and see what he does.

He has a set of plans also and is planning on building your version of the Arrow. I don't know how soon he'll get started or if he will participate with us, but he'll be building one too.

He wanted to know if he could get the CAD folder from you. Apparently he can produce plexi-glass templates on one of his machines.

That spinner is amazing isn't it? I think the reason that these little spinners aren't made commercially is because their diminutive size prohibits making them in one size fits all.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #364 on:** March 03, 2007, 05:20:45 PM »

I like it tooooooooo!
I'll use AN APC 6x2
Count me in and where do I send the $25.00?

Roger

frank carlisle · « **Reply #365 on:** March 03, 2007, 05:33:03 PM »

I guess I'll be using a tornadoe 6X3......at least that's what Jan made my spinner to fit. Hey, he gave me the prop too.

I don't know how Jan wants to do the money thing. He'll either let you know or let me know. So don't rush to get out your checkbook right now.

The 3 of us will be the only guys on earth that have these spinners.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #366 on:** March 03, 2007, 05:43:03 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 03, 2007, 05:19:14 PM

He has a set of plans also and is planning on building your version of the Arrow. I don't know how soon he'll get started or if he will participate with us, but he'll be building one too.

He wanted to know if he could get the CAD folder from you. Apparently he can produce plexi-glass templates on one of his machines.

You mean the CAD drawing (s) I printed out for you guys, of the ribs, etc.? Sure, I can put 'em in .dwg or .dxf format. Not sure how compatible it is with other CAD software, I sent Ralph Wenzel some drawings in both formats and his DesignCad software wouldn't read either one. I currently use Intellicad; don't know which end has the problem. Or maybe the email system messed 'em up. But tell Jan I'll be happy to give it a try with him.

Good looking little spinner, looks very secure. It'll surely enhance the FA look.

You guys better hurry up, all I need to do is paint the handles I'm working on (red of course) and I'll be ready to get back to the FA.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #367 on:** March 03, 2007, 06:10:14 PM »

I sent Jan a link to your post about the cad file Ray. I sure hope he posts here.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #368 on:** March 03, 2007, 08:55:33 PM »

Deleted, spinner photo provided answer.
Thanks!
I"will" post photo's soon!
Roger

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #369 on:** March 03, 2007, 09:14:57 PM »

Hmm, hate to say it, but,
Forecast for tomorrow is 71 deg F, 10mph breeze.

Yep, I think I'll fly tomorrow.

Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #370 on:** March 04, 2007, 06:13:02 AM »

Bummer...we've dug out of our latest foot-plus of snow; now the temp has dropped again, below zero wind chills this AM. On the other hand we don't have hurricanes...

--Ray

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #371 on:** March 04, 2007, 06:15:29 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 03, 2007, 06:10:14 PM

I sent Jan a link to your post about the cad file Ray. I sure hope he posts here.

Jan contacted me via email; I sent him the CAD drawings I have. Just waiting now to see if he can get them in usable form.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #372 on:** March 04, 2007, 07:00:44 AM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on March 04, 2007, 06:15:29 AM

Jan contacted me via email; I sent him the CAD drawings I have. Just waiting now to see if he can get them in usable form.

--Ray

If anyone can get that cad file to work for him it will be Jan..........I forget wether it was plexi-glass or formica he was going to make templates with.......but whichever one it is, hard templates will greatly be appreciated.
Did you exchange any information with him about your spinner?

You know I feel real bad for Roger........never a white Christmas, and he will never experience the pleasure of running a snowblower and blowing two feet of snow onto the neighbors driveway and front porch. Poor guy. Well I guess at least he gets to play shuffleboard a lot.

Jan and I went to the LHS yesterday. I picked up enough wood for my Arrow and a start on the "Frankenstone Arrow".

Bill Little · « **Reply #373 on:** March 04, 2007, 07:40:53 AM »

Ahhhh... the good ol' optivisor! Geez, Frank, I didn't know that you needed one of those, too!

With my 8 pairs of reading glasses and my tri-level optivisor, I can see better than when I was a kid! LOL!!

Bill <><

frank carlisle · « **Reply #374 on:** March 04, 2007, 03:14:25 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on March 04, 2007, 07:40:53 AM

Ahhhh... the good ol' optivisor! Geez, Frank, I didn't know that you needed one of those, too!

With my 8 pairs of reading glasses and my tri-level optivisor, I can see better than when I was a kid! LOL!!

Bill <><

Hi Ya Bill!! Yup the opti-visor is a necessity for these ole eyes. My glasses just keep me from bumpimg into things, all of which is fuzzy. Luckily I already know what everything looks like.

The greatest thing about building and finishing with the opti-visor is when you take them off the plane looks pretty darn good.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #375 on:** March 04, 2007, 03:51:59 PM »

I don't need anything that magnifies my mistakes...

--Ray
P.S. Frank, you know that little materials list I gave you was just for the wing, right? Better add another sheet or two of 1/16" for the fuselage.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #376 on:** March 04, 2007, 03:59:16 PM »

Quote from: minnesotamodeler on March 04, 2007, 03:51:59 PM

I don't need anything that magnifies my mistakes...

--Ray
P.S. Frank, you know that little materials list I gave you was just for the wing, right? Better add another sheet or two of 1/16" for the fuselage.

I picked up extra of everything Ray.

You'd be surprised at how small the mistakes are once you take the magnifier off.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #377 on:** March 04, 2007, 04:15:08 PM »

I went ahead and put the bellcrank/ladouts in my FA. I'm using a 3" bellcrank to cut down on the sensitivity; this plane is so short-coupled it's liable to react like a combat plane, and if I'm gonna fly stunt I need something really smooth. Means I had to butcher some center ribs to make room, but I'm good at cutting holes...It's a 3" Perfect alum. bellcrank with the pushrod arm cut down in length. Guess you want a picture (sigh)

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #378 on:** March 04, 2007, 04:56:25 PM »

OF COURSE WE WANT A PICTURE!!

Bill Little · « **Reply #379 on:** March 04, 2007, 05:15:20 PM »

OK, OK, I swore I would NEVER BUILD ANOTHER ARROW after the "400".........

So, who's gonna send me some plans?? I mean, after 8 pages of reading about it...............................

Maybe Jan can take one of my old 1-1/8th" Froom spinners and make a nose piece??

Bill <><

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #380 on:** March 04, 2007, 08:39:58 PM »

Now that's one of the funniest things I've read on this forum...WELCOME TO THE ASYLUM BILL!

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #381 on:** March 04, 2007, 08:50:06 PM »

Bellcrank pictures...

frank carlisle · « **Reply #382 on:** March 04, 2007, 09:44:32 PM »

Looking good Ray. Now that you've shown us the way, I am going to cut ribs today and get this wing built. Maybe I'll one up you and put a 4 inch bellcrank in mine.
Do you already have some of the sheeting on the wing?
Have you given any thought as to how you are going to finish it? Monocote? Dope and Tissue?

Bill PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a copy of the plans. And like Ray said----welcome to the nut house.

Bill Little · « **Reply #383 on:** March 04, 2007, 11:27:55 PM »

Thanks, Frank.............I think..............

First it was the SLOB, and now it's another ARROW!!!!!!!

You guys are a terrible influence on me. I mean I was once a normal, well adjusted, semi-respected member of the Stunt community (well in my dreams anyway!) Now..............................

But, I love it!

Bill <><

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #384 on:** March 05, 2007, 01:19:04 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 04, 2007, 09:44:32 PM

Looking good Ray. Now that you've shown us the way, I am going to cut ribs today and get this wing built. Maybe I'll one up you and put a 4 inch bellcrank in mine.
Do you already have some of the sheeting on the wing?
Have you given any thought as to how you are going to finish it? Monocote? Dope and Tissue?

Actually a 4" bellcrank might not be such a bad idea, if you could shoehorn it in. Problem being of course finding enough room for it to move those long arms. And then you'd have to use one of those big ole stunt handles.

Iron-on finish for me, I got rolls and rolls of the stuff...even colors other than yellow. I might use Rustoleum on the fuselage, that's been my modus operandi lately. Color(s), I haven't a clue as yet.

No sheeting on the wing yet (had to have access, especially toward the tip, to cut LO holes in the ribs). What you're seeing in the pictures is my latest Minnie Delta behind the FA. Ready for primer, along with those handles, if today gets warm enough (anything above freezing) they're all going out to the garage for a coat of primer. Sheeting the LE will be my next step.

Bill, brush up on your notch-cutting skills, you're gonna need it when you start on those ribs.

--Ray

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #385 on:** March 05, 2007, 06:53:11 AM »

Ahh, A Good Day Sunday, flying and dog training!

and did not have to miss any races live (NHRA and NASCAR) on TV

No! I dont do shuffleboard - that's for the "older than me" people.

Sold my snow blower, snow shovels and ice chopper, never found the time (or snow/ice) to use them.

Should be able to get back to the FA today.
Ray, Questions: Are the Bell crank/LO holes radiused/smoothed? Might have a wear point on the LO's there!

Where did the fwd LO exit at the wing tip? On, behind or in front of the LE?
Bill !!
Welcome aboard friend!
WE need two of these "things" on our side of the country!!

Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #386 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:30:10 AM »

Roger, the bellcrank holes are sorta smoothed out, no great effort went into it. I've done bellcrank and leadouts like this for a long time and haven't had one fail yet. I know it looks a little iffy, the first ones I did went in combat planes that weren't destined to last very long anyway so I didn't worry about it. Then as I moved old control systems to new planes, there continued to be no significant wear...so now I do them all that way. Those leadouts are very light too, .018 flying line.

My leadouts will be sorta unique--I'm setting them up for over-and-under exits rather than side-by-side, a la the LIttleAxe--also borrowing the adjustable unit from it. Right now the leadouts will adjust from, forwardmost, the back edge of the LE; to about an inch or inch and a half behind that. I'll leave finishing that wingtip 'til last, so I can see where the actual CG will land--I can move the forward limit as much as another half inch to the front if it appears necessary.

Here's a pic of the LO guide setup on the LittleAxe.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #387 on:** March 05, 2007, 03:49:36 PM »

So your adjustable lead out stays exposed and that portion of the wing tip doesn't get covered?

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #388 on:** March 05, 2007, 04:08:42 PM »

HI YALL;

I haven't posted on this before so I thought I'd let you know someone else was watching your progress. So far after seeing ALL the posts you guys have become pretty good problem solvers. When will it be ready for the rest of us? Seriously you are to be commended for your staulwart(did I spell that right) effort on this project. I will be watching to see the final results. You have taken on a monumental task by what I have read so far. Keep up the good work.

"Billy G"

PS-----Frank BRBV means I got big fingers LOL

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #389 on:** March 05, 2007, 04:19:31 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 05, 2007, 03:49:36 PM

So your adjustable lead out stays exposed and that portion of the wing tip doesn't get covered?

That is correct, sir. See pic. Look closely...verrrrry closely. I know, use your magnifier thingies.

Thought I had a better picture of it but can't find it.

--Ray

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #390 on:** March 05, 2007, 04:26:24 PM »

Wing sheeting: Here's my iron-on method, dunno if you might want to try it or not. Doesn't really save much except pinholes.

Oh hey, Frank, check out my Autogyro pilot on the other thread.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #391 on:** March 05, 2007, 05:15:54 PM »

Quote from: Bill Gruby on March 05, 2007, 04:08:42 PM

HI YALL;

I haven't posted on this before so I thought I'd let you know someone else was watching your progress. So far after seeing ALL the posts you guys have become pretty good problem solvers. When will it be ready for the rest of us? Seriously you are to be commended for your staulwart(did I spell that right) effort on this project. I will be watching to see the final results. You have taken on a monumental task by what I have read so far. Keep up the good work.

"Billy G"

PS-----Frank BRBV means I got big fingers LOL

Thanks Bill-----I was guessing from the number of hits that other guys were checking in on our project. Thanks for the compliment and thanks for following along.
So that's what BRBV means.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #392 on:** March 05, 2007, 05:23:16 PM »

Ray I want to try that iron on method of yours. What is the brand name of the glue you use?
The sheeting looks good. You're getting way ahead of me.

I went to see Snoopy. You must have kids around.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #393 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:48:27 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on March 05, 2007, 05:23:16 PM

Ray I want to try that iron on method of yours. What is the brand name of the glue you use?
The sheeting looks good. You're getting way ahead of me.

I went to see Snoopy. You must have kids around.

Naw, just grandkids...my baby girl is nearly 24, firstborn will be 38(!) in a week or so...seems like I oughtta be the one who's 38. Time flies.

I'm using Titebond yellow wood glue, AKA aliphatic resin. Most any yellow glue will work, probably white glue too, I just never tried it.

The sheeting is coming out a little wavy...looks like we might could use some half ribs under there. But the wing sure is getting rigid!

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #394 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:26:39 PM »

Ray---I had to let you be the one to say grand kids. They must really like you to give up a Snoopy.

Alphatic resin ----- got it.

What do you think is causing the wavy condition? Or is the sheeting sagging between the ribs?

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #395 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:51:04 PM »

Ray,
re Wavy sheeting. On a previous build, when "ironing" the upside down (ie ink to the balsa) rib templates on to balsa for an ink transfer, I did notice the sheeting getting "wavy". I was ironing the whole sheet at the time. If you are ironing the whole sheet, "maybe" this is the cause? If you still have some sheeting to apply, maybe you can try localized ironing, just over the glue joints. Have not tried it (yet!) might work!
Busy day on non FA items today.
Tonight I cut rectangular blanks for all the ribs,attached rib templates to the balsa blanks and cut MM to length. Tomorrow I will hopefully shape ribs, route/lighten MM and fab fus. side pieces and .....
Yes, will start taking pics!
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #396 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:40:48 AM »

Yup, Roger, I did heat the whole sheet with the iron...may well be at least a partial cause. I think the 1/32" doesn't have enough support under it, either. It's not a structural problem, just aesthetic; and of course being 1/32" thick there ain't much room for sanding out irregularities. I have the underside of the wing yet to do; I may try the "old-fashioned" wet-glue and pin method to see if it comes out any straighter. The previous "iron'on" projects I've done all used 1/16" sheet.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #397 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:12:01 PM »

Ray do you think you could situate the wing in the light in such a way that a picture would show what you mean by wavy?
Do you think half ribs or perhaps 1/16 planking would correct this situation?

BTW-----This thread is now officially the longest one we've had so far. More views and more replies than ever before. And to think it's all for a 1/2A model.

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #398 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:27:18 PM »

Frank,
1/16" LE sheeting will add approx. 8.8grams/.3 0z.. Then we add additional weight for thicker capstrips which will have to be sanded to blend in to the TE sheeting.
Suggest we wait and see how the pin/glue method works.

Ray,

I believe the F-2 Blkhd is angled to provide " the angle and locating surface for the wire LG".
We are using Formed Al gear mounted to the underside of the MM's.
Question: I studied your latest photo's, great work!!!!! Based on where you are on Final Assembly, do you think F-2 could be installed vertically and moved aft to the area of the second wing spar?
If so, I believe the round Sullivan 2 oz tank can be made to fit if "heated and squeezed" a little .
MM will have to be extended aft to mount F-2 but some of the extra length at front can be eliminated trying to keep MM wt. the same.
I'll try to heat/squeeze a tank if you believe F-2 can be located, as above.
Roger

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #399 on:** March 07, 2007, 03:40:35 AM »

Quote from: Roger Vizioli on March 06, 2007, 08:27:18 PM

Frank,
1/16" LE sheeting will add approx. 8.8grams/.3 0z.. Then we add additional weight for thicker capstrips which will have to be sanded to blend in to the TE sheeting.
Suggest we wait and see how the pin/glue method works.

Ray,
I believe the F-2 Blkhd is angled to provide " the angle and locating surface for the wire LG".
We are using Formed Al gear mounted to the underside of the MM's.
Question: I studied your latest photo's, great work!!!!! Based on where you are on Final Assembly, do you think F-2 could be installed vertically and moved aft to the area of the second wing spar?
If so, I believe the round Sullivan 2 oz tank can be made to fit if "heated and squeezed" a little .
MM will have to be extended aft to mount F-2 but some of the extra length at front can be eliminated trying to keep MM wt. the same.
I'll try to heat/squeeze a tank if you believe F-2 can be located, as above.
Roger

Roger,
F2 could probably be moved as you suggest; it would have to be resized (smaller) since it would gain a little height, not sure how much without laying it out. Just watch that you don't encroach on your bellcrank space. It would add some weight, as you note the MM beams must be extended with it, ditto the ply. tank floor...then that leaves the landing gear with less support too, especially if you try thinning the MM's down to lose some of the add'l weight. Or if you cut some new gear with more forward sweep, perhaps it too could be moved back and mounted where the beams are supported by F2.

2 oz. fuel capacity is probably worth the effort if you wanted to run a little rich and still have that 6-7 minute engine run that the whole pattern would require. I'll do a little checking in CAD and see what all is involved, later this AM.

I also agree you ought to wait on changing the sheeting to 1/16"--center section sheeting would also have to be changed; to really fit, the TE would need to be the same stuff. I think it might add more weight than we realize. I'll add the underside sheeting this AM also with "pins and glue" and see how it looks.

On that note, Frank, you really want me to post pics of my bad construction??!! What kind of masochist do you think I am? heh heh just kidding. I'll try to get some pics of it too. If the bottom comes out better I'll probably remove the top and redo it anyhow.

--Ray