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Author Topic: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?  (Read 3465 times)

Offline Rafael Gonzalez

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STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« on: September 01, 2012, 06:09:24 PM »
I've searched the site for actual preference on the use, advantages and dis. of solid or stranded lines. From a technical/scientific point of view (without any data or calculations from a simpleton engineer dedicated to the kiss principle and an avid follower of Murphy's Law  n~ S?P), it would seem to me that there may be an advantage of weight and aerodynamics in solid lines. The cons may be the safety concerns due to vibrations on the points of attachments (loops, wire wraps) and line kinks. Have used .018 stranded on everything I fly; left over from the Combat addiction of many years.

Is there a preferred choice by the well seasoned folks that compete feverishly every year? I would like to know...and try it

Thank you!

 H^^

Online Brett Buck

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 06:16:33 PM »
I've searched the site for actual preference on the use, advantages and dis. of solid or stranded lines. From a technical/scientific point of view (without any data or calculations from a simpleton engineer dedicated to the kiss principle and an avid follower of Murphy's Law  n~ S?P), it would seem to me that there may be an advantage of weight and aerodynamics in solid lines. The cons may be the safety concerns due to vibrations on the points of attachments (loops, wire wraps) and line kinks. Have used .018 stranded on everything I fly; left over from the Combat addiction of many years.

Is there a preferred choice by the well seasoned folks that compete feverishly every year? I would like to know...and try it

   Almost everyone has given up on solids at this point. The problem is the possibility of sticking together, particularly when it rains.

    Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 06:24:56 PM »
Solids work in very dry climates, but if you travel to a humid climate for a contest, you're going to have to change to either 7 strand cables or the soldered 3 strand "Staystrate" from PAW. Howard and Dirt seem to like "Staystrate", but apparently Paul doesn't.

I used solids back about 1970, just sport flying, and discovered that more than about 5-6 twists in the lines and they'd lock up and scare the poo out of me. Of course, it never occurred to us to clean the lines. Now, it just seems to me that re-trimming and getting used to something you can only use some of the time is a waste of flying time.   H^^ Steve
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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 07:02:35 PM »
I don't want to sound off topic but i hear some people have been using fishing lines
and say it's as good as or even better than the regular stranded.
I've only used stranded. Don't think I can use anything else.

Marcus
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 09:29:34 PM »
I don't want to sound off topic but i hear some people have been using fishing lines
and say it's as good as or even better than the regular stranded.
I've only used stranded. Don't think I can use anything else.

Marcus

You might do a search on the 1/2a forum, possibly also the Combat Forum. There are positives and negatives with everything, but those two forums will have more about use of the various Spectra and similar fishing lines. We fishermen lump them all under the title "superlines", but as I understand it, some are legal for flying lines, and some are not. Spectra is the only one that's legal, I think, and of course, there are various brands and hybrids to muddy the waters.   n~ Steve
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 10:47:57 PM »
I've used solids for a long time (40+years) and they do have some significant advantages in terms of weight and drag.
They also do have the disadvantages mentioned above...need to be wiped down before every flight and cleaned with alcohol every couple of flights, also if the weather gets wet they are useless...they can stick together like they are glued.
I fly mostly in Tucson AZ where it's very dry most of the time and they work great.  There is less stretch in the solids also and that means more precise control.
However if you live where it's wet or travel to contests...they simply are not worth the effort in my opinion.

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Bruce Perry

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 11:05:51 PM »
I flew solids at the 98 worlds in Kyiv, they were all the rage then.  I was still quite sick for the first round, in the rain no less.  I thought for sure it would be the end of the airplane.  I wiped the lines on the way to the handle and it flew fine even in the rain!!  That is to say its possible they won't lockup, but because it's not predictable, it's unacceptable!!

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 03:41:36 AM »
I actually solved the "solids" lock up issue using a carburetor cleaner in a spray can. The type you buy from any regular Auto parts store.  Each flight 3 passes and it was perfect. I never understood the "rain-ex" solution.. I understand the purpose/theory behind it, but I was not convinced the water residue was being removed or prevented and in itself was the primary cause of "lockup"

I was using the Windy Medical grade Solids and did so for 2 years.

In the inital stages of using the Solids - I tried it (rainex) and eventually gave up on that liquid as the means to the end - I know others had success - I did not. So I tried to solve the problem from another angle - Clean the lines and coat them. I had bottles and cans of stuff from Isopropyl alcohol to Windex to Synthetic silicon - I had the best success by far with the Carby Cleaner.

I did plenty of flying in the early morning with Dew all over the lines - I will admit I never flew in the rain - if nothing else I don't like to fly in the rain period - however the mist / fog / dew of early morning starts was enough to test - I'm talking the sort of cold mornings where dew falls like a mist.

( This is in a nutshell what was written on the side )

Carb & Throttle Body Cleaner, cleans, lubricates and protects the throttle valve, throttle body and idle air control valves.
Carb & Throttle Body Cleaner is a blend of cleaning agents which safely and rapidly remove accumulated deposits from the throttle valve, throttle body and idle air control valves of the air induction system.
It also combines lubricants and anti-corrosion ingredients which protect these critical components.


So why dont I use it today ?

Ultimately durability was the deciding factor for me : No matter how careful I was at cleaning - the wear and tear on the lines was not up the rigors of my practice. I was down to replacing the lines every 50 - 100 flights or so. I got tired of making up new lines - having to slightly tweak the handle adjustment if it wasnt perfect, and when you consider I can put in 25 flights in a session ; its no joy...

To quote Bruce Perry : Unacceptable !

18 Tho Stranded are pretty close ; albeit not as direct as the solids but pretty darn close.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 04:13:57 AM by PJ Rowland »
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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 05:14:37 AM »
You might do a search on the 1/2a forum, possibly also the Combat Forum. There are positives and negatives with everything, but those two forums will have more about use of the various Spectra and similar fishing lines. We fishermen lump them all under the title "superlines", but as I understand it, some are legal for flying lines, and some are not. Spectra is the only one that's legal, I think, and of course, there are various brands and hybrids to muddy the waters.   n~ Steve

Hi Steve

I've checked those but I still don't know if it would be a good idea to use the fishing lines.
Can they take the pull of a big stunter?
Some say they are pretty inexpensive. Is there anybody using them who could give us some feedback on the pros and cons?
Thanks people.

Marcus
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 08:18:27 AM »
Mike Scott sells carbon steel solid lines that will not stick. That is what Doug Moon uses and I use when I fly solids. I watched Bob Geieske dip his carbon steel lines in a puddle on his way out to the circle to fly. I asked him why he would do such a thing and he said it was to build confidence in the lines so that he would not be worried during officials. The trick is "No Touch Rain Shield". It can be found at any auto part store. I have flown in the rain with no problems using No Touch and Mike's Carbon steel lines.

Derek

Offline Jorge de Azevedo

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 10:08:20 AM »
Hi Steve

I've checked those but I still don't know if it would be a good idea to use the fishing lines.
Can they take the pull of a big stunter?
Some say they are pretty inexpensive. Is there anybody using them who could give us some feedback on the pros and cons?
Thanks people.

Marcus
D>K

Online Brett Buck

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 10:56:52 AM »
Mike Scott sells carbon steel solid lines that will not stick. That is what Doug Moon uses and I use when I fly solids. I watched Bob Geieske dip his carbon steel lines in a puddle on his way out to the circle to fly. I asked him why he would do such a thing and he said it was to build confidence in the lines so that he would not be worried during officials. The trick is "No Touch Rain Shield". It can be found at any auto part store. I have flown in the rain with no problems using No Touch and Mike's Carbon steel lines.

Derek

   We did the same test, and while it didn't stick hard, it was clearly much more draggy. If felt like we had put heavy wheel bearing grease in the bellcrank pivot. With a Ted handle it didn't have a tremendous improvement in the control response - some, but not like when you switch from stranded to solid using a Baron handle. It's a minimal improvement over .018s, at least. I don't even consider using .015 stranded any more for full-size models, even though I am under the limit. They are certainly huge improvement over .015 but that's because .015s are nowhere near sturdy enough for good response.

    BTW, one application that is remarkable improvement is .014 music wire on a Classic plane that otherwise uses .015s. 58' of .014 and a Ted handle is like attaching your fingers directly to the bellcrank. If it rains, just pass. I briefly considered borrowing Ted's Chizler to take to the 2003 TT it was so amazing. Maybe it would have turned out better if I had done that...

   I don't necessarily say not to try it but make sure you know what you are getting and what is likely to happen. You only need on good stick at the wrong time to plant the seed.

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 11:50:34 AM »
 Snip

    BTW, one application that is remarkable improvement is .014 music wire on a Classic plane that otherwise uses .015s. 58' of .014 and a Ted handle is like attaching your fingers directly to the bellcrank. If it rains, just pass. I briefly considered borrowing Ted's Chizler to take to the 2003 TT it was so amazing. Maybe it would have turned out better if I had done that...

   snip

    Brett

Harrummph!  Fat chance!  I let Buck "borrow" the Chizler one time and he beat me hollow with it.  Same damn thing with the Ruffy.  I get enough humiliation in life without contributing to it! >:( >:( >:(

Ted

Online Brett Buck

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 12:47:34 PM »
Harrummph!  Fat chance!  I let Buck "borrow" the Chizler one time and he beat me hollow with it.  Same damn thing with the Ruffy.  I get enough humiliation in life without contributing to it!

   Uh, as I recall, you put money on it the last time. I am an engineer. Never stand between an engineer and a free lunch, and never stand between an engineer and a $10 bill.

    As recall the Chizler incident, I was way ahead but then I found they put appearance points on mine. Once I had them take that off, it was pretty close. Of course I calculated the corrected score before I pointed it out to them. When I saw the Ruffy score I thought the same thing had happened.

    Brett

Offline proparc

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 12:53:27 PM »
Question, when you guys fly FAI either here or abroard, do you use a different gauge and or, type of lines?
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Rafael Gonzalez

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2012, 01:58:13 PM »
Harrummph!  Fat chance!  I let Buck "borrow" the Chizler one time and he beat me hollow with it.  Same damn thing with the Ruffy.  I get enough humiliation in life without contributing to it! >:( >:( >:(

Ted

 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

That would be like letting my combat buddy borrow my old Nemesis with the Hoffelt in it to fly at the contest.... LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ n1 n1
I knew of a guy that used graphite powder on his solids (before I was bitten by the stunt bug) they worked like butter according to him...
Are Spectra lines being considered legal in stunt? I know they are in Combat... As far as my progress in PA, I am still locking and getting blisters on my knees on the outside square maneuvers... Can do everything else pretty decently with no "fishing"... HB~> HB~>
Thank You Coaches for your input!  H^^

I think I've watched just about every video that is out there displaying the pattern.
I'll try the carbon steel ones... How do I contact the fellow?

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 02:31:19 PM »
You can go from .015" seven-strand to .010" solid steel with the same weight and less drag.  The reduced drag will enhance your score and if it fails, it's only a model airplane.   Go for the gold !!
Paul Smith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »
You can go from .015" seven-strand to .010" solid steel with the same weight and less drag.  The reduced drag will enhance your score and if it fails, it's only a model airplane.   Go for the gold !!

    It's not a matter of it breaking, it's a matter of it sticking when it's wet. BTW, for FAI can your run anything you want but be advised that .010 solids are not allowed for airplanes that can use .015 stranded (40-64 oz) in AMA. You have to be under 40 oz.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2012, 03:07:23 PM »
Question, when you guys fly FAI either here or abroard, do you use a different gauge and or, type of lines?

   I have tried various swaps for the TT and always ended up back with the AMA-legal lines (actually, always .018 stranded). I have tried just about everything within reason - .015 stranded, .014 stainless, .014 music wire (Mike Scott), .013 music wire (Orchard Supply Hardware), Laystrate ".015". The only thing that I want to try, but haven't, are the Yatsenko lines (stranded, about .016, with much stiffer constituent wire).

   As mentioned, I am under the limit to use .015s in AMA but I use .018 After the 2003 NATs there's no way I am ever going to use .015s on these airplanes. I could feel the .018s stretching at the bottom of the loops and the engine was about to quit rich putting on the brakes.

    Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2012, 04:36:43 PM »
OK, people have mentioned several things.  I will put in my own opinion and experience, but I am not recommending anything EXCEPT I will caution anyone using the Rain-X product or one of the several other windshield rain repellant materials.  That stuff can do a really good job at keeping rain from sticking to lines.  I used several different brands over a period of time.  Then I thought, gee, if on application of the stuff makes the lines real slippery, then maybe two coats would work even better.  WRONG.  The lines almost totally bonded together.  Not a good thing to happen during the dive portion of a wingover.  Full control just barely got the airplane to recover and then barely able to complete the flight.  Use the stuff if you want, but beware and know that you were not warned.  And you need to clean the lines of the stuff COMPLETELY from time to time. 

I have used solids, .012 for my lighter airplanes and .014 for my 62oz Bearcat for years.  I clean them regularly (like every 6 flights or less and before any oficial flight) with either brake cleaning fluid or most often with acetone.  Then, I make a mixture of about 50/50 of talcum power and graphite on a soft paper towel and wipe the lines with this before every flight.  I have flown in rain.  I have flown from wet grass, though it does not hurt to have someone hold the lines off the wet grass while you are starting the engine.  No need to get the lines any wetter than necessary.  I have never had my lines lock up due to being wet.  That does not mean there will not be a first time.  I am ready to concede that the bother of the care and feeding of solid lines is too much trouble and I am transistioning to cables.

I am not recommending solids nor my routine of cleaning and wiping with graphite/talcum.  It has worked for me, but I was alway concerned if and when the odds ran out and the lines locked up.

Keith

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2012, 05:30:15 PM »
Keith - I also had similar success with the Brake Clean when I was testing. The Beauty of the Carby Cleaner is it has a corrosion preventer inside combined with a mild lubricant which the Brake Clean does not, but it works quite well.
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Trostle

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 10:30:53 PM »
Keith - I also had similar success with the Brake Clean when I was testing. The Beauty of the Carby Cleaner is it has a corrosion preventer inside combined with a mild lubricant which the Brake Clean does not, but it works quite well.

PJ,

I am not trying to argue, but I do not think any kind of lubricant on solids is a good idea.  Lubricants have viscosity.  How can any material on lines that adds viscosity be good?  I avoid it at all costs.  That is why brake cleaner or acetone has worked best for me.  (When the Bearcat is finally retired, my use of solids for CL stunt will end.)

Keith

Keith

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 12:33:05 AM »
Kieth - No I wasnt arguing either :)

I simply said what I found worked for me - You had the added material you were using in combination with your cleaner which is a brilliant idea and one I had'nt even considered. You make a good case one to which I can't argue against, I was simply saying I did some fairly exhaustive testing and stated what worked for me. No-one can ever doubt your results, I just gave another option. The reason I commented was Brake Clean also worked for me - but just did'nt give the control smoothness in the long term - you solved this with your powder solution, brilliant. I cannot explain why the Carby cleaner worked ;suffice to say I got others onto it locally who had similar results.

I did try other forms of synthetic lubricants with terrible results so I understand where your coming from - there must be something in the Carby Cleaner that is helping, I just don't know what that material is ; did'nt care to figure it out beyond saying it worked for me.

The conversation about any viscosity came up from another flier, whats weird is it dries and leaves no residue, so as I mentioned there is something inside it but what it is I have no idea. You system works and your results prove that - fairly clearly.

In the end I agree with the overwhelming majority who say solids just don't last even if you use Gods Saliva to clean them.

(which I'm yet to try.....)

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Trostle

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 01:17:28 AM »
Hi PJ,

Nice response.  I think we are both only describing what we have found that works and might not work so well.  When it comes to the matter of the care and feeding of these solid lines, I have always hesitated to recommend to anyone what I do because I do not want someone to do something I did and then loose an airplane perhaps because of it.  Again, this has worked for me, but I do not recommend it for anyone else.  As I have said, and I think others have explained, it is not worth the risk, like at a contest under wet conditions and find out that solids do not work all that well.  Solids just are not worth it.

(Maybe that "disaster type" experience has been postponed for me because "wet" does not happen very often here in Southern Arizona.  Then, there was the time I flew at a contest in Lexington, KY, perfectly dry conditions, flying off a "donut circle" with crushed rock between the center of the circle to the paved donut.  Picked up the handle with solid lines and the lines acted like they were welded together.  Scary.)

Keith

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 05:45:02 AM »
Okay, I've tried hard to ignore this thread, but I just seem drawn to it each day to read of the horrors people have experienced using solid lines.

I use solid line exclusively; have for many years. I love the feel I get with them. The plane just seems more one-to-one in respect to control inputs. I feel I can fly more precisely using them and I have long since accepted the fact that they are a pain in the rump in respect to care and maintenance. The performance gain is worth the trouble to me.

At this year's Nats we had to fly on Friday morning (Top 20 day) in both heavy wind and light rain (sometimes it was not-so-light-rain...). Years ago Charlie Reeves and Allen Brickhaus had clued me in to a product that - when applied properly - prevents solid lines from "sticking" in the rain. The product is "No-Touch Rain Shield." It can be purchased from ACE Hardware stores and also at NAPA I'm told. I get mine at the local ACE place...

The method that needs to be strictly adhered to in order to make this stuff work properly in the rain is as follows:  

1. Clean the lines thoroughly using Acetone. (Note: You will have to get a helper hold the lines up off the ground throughout this entire cleaning and treatment process, and right on through to the point where you go to the center of the circle and take the handle from him or her. The helper will then leave the circle quickly…) Wipe the lines with a paper towel that is wetted with Acetone until there is no trace of dirt or residue on the lines. (Important note here about cleaning solids: Don’t use too much pressure when gripping the lines with the wetted towel. Solids will get a “curl” to them if you press down too hard. Light pressure is all that’s required for cleaning or later treatment of the lines with the Rain Shield product.)

2. Spray some No-Touch Rain Shield onto a paper towel and run the lines out, making sure that the wetted area of the towel is fully contacting the lines. Run the lines from the plane to the handle, and then back from the handle to the plane. Then use a clean and dry paper towel to run the lines out once from the plane to the handle. You should not run the lines out again before flying, nor should you touch the lines with your bare hands again before flying. Your helper must keep both lines suspended in the air throughout this entire process and on through the point where you take the handle from him/her to begin your flight.

Using the above method has worked extremely well for me and I have experienced absolutely no “sticking” using solids in the rain.

It is important to always thoroughly clean solids before each flight, rain or no rain. I use and prefer Acetone for cleaning, but some others have found products that seem to work well also. I’ll stick with the Acetone… One thing, keep a wet rag handy to clean the Acetone off of your hands for health’s sake, and also to prevent any Acetone residue on your hands from attacking the finish on the plane!

Was I the only one on solids in the rain at the Nats? Nope. Buddy Wieder and Frank McMillan also flew on solids in the rain and used the Rain Shield product with zero problems.

In fact, during the Top -5 fly-off, Doug Moon was using solids in the humid morning air and was experiencing some sticking problems. He used some of my Rain Shield (That I had commandeered from Charlie Reeves as I had forgotten my can…) and, well, the rest is now Stunt history… (Congrats once again, Doug; well done.) Doug was using some of the solids that he had received from Bob Gieseke and Mike Scott. They are different composition than the ones that Buddy and I use. I was experiencing no problems with my solids on Top-5 morning… so I guess I have no excuses!  :-\

For many years I have been using the medical grade, lightly annealed, polished stainless steel lines that I purchase on large reels in large quantities from Jersey Strand and Cable (Which is located about four miles from me as the crow flies, across the Delaware River in Phillipsburg, New Jersey). I have reels of .008, .012, and .014 solid lines to cover the spectrum of my flying activities. The .008 solids are put to use flying electric ½ A sized models in my back yard…

Over the years I have tried to go back to cables, but each time I do I find myself longing for the increased performance that I feel the solids provide. This is a personal choice, and this post is in no way meant to convince anyone to switch to solids. They are a pain to care for, and are certainly not for everyone. I just wanted to relate some of what I have learned in case others might want to give them a try.

In solidarity – Bob Hunt    

  

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2012, 07:44:25 AM »
So Bob how often are you replacing them?

I have never used the product you suggest ; its difficult to argue with the results you and Doug share !

Looking at the Chemical composition of it however is a different story.. 85 % is isopropyl alcohol...

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2012, 07:50:54 AM »
Well, I replace them when they need replacing... Not being flippant here, PJ, it's just that I don't have a regular interval of replacement for my lines.

I have noticed that after a few years of flying the surface of the lines becomes burnished at the "crossover" point and I usually replace them at that point. The crossover point (point at which the lines meet when there are loops or twists in the lines) is closer to the plane than to the handle, so I usually just reverse the lines, if they are still in good shape otherwise, and get another "lifetime" from them.

Later - Bob

Offline phil c

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2012, 10:14:21 AM »
One important point in Bob's little article.  He is using stainless steel lines.  Stainless seems to be a lot more resistant to fatigue than music wire and is much more corrosion resistant, although it is significantly weaker.  This was obvious in combat at the NATS.  The F2D planes all use 4 strand brass-plated music wire.  I saw at least three flights where there what looked like a moderate line tangle broke at least one set of the lines.  They are strong and stiff but cannot take nearly as much bending as stainless.

Regarding Spectra, before it came available multistrand stainless steel wire was just about the only material used for heavy duty deep-sea fishng.  Now Spectra has virtually taken over the boats.  So coming from the fishing industry isnt much of a complaint.  It doesn't kink, it doesn't fatigue, and it doesn't stick.  Prestretching it at about 30-35 lbs for .018 material, like the kite flyers do, minimizes any further stretching.

I used it on a Fast combat plane at the NATS this year.  Absolutely no problems, even in line tangles, and plenty precise enough to get a kill exactly where I wanted it.
phil Cartier

Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »
One important point in Bob's little article.  He is using stainless steel lines.  Stainless seems to be a lot more resistant to fatigue than music wire and is much more corrosion resistant, although it is significantly weaker.  This was obvious in combat at the NATS.  The F2D planes all use 4 strand brass-plated music wire.  I saw at least three flights where there what looked like a moderate line tangle broke at least one set of the lines.  They are strong and stiff but cannot take nearly as much bending as stainless.

Regarding Spectra, before it came available multistrand stainless steel wire was just about the only material used for heavy duty deep-sea fishng.  Now Spectra has virtually taken over the boats.  So coming from the fishing industry isnt much of a complaint.  It doesn't kink, it doesn't fatigue, and it doesn't stick.  Prestretching it at about 30-35 lbs for .018 material, like the kite flyers do, minimizes any further stretching.

I used it on a Fast combat plane at the NATS this year.  Absolutely no problems, even in line tangles, and plenty precise enough to get a kill exactly where I wanted it.

Thanks Phil

Yes, I've heard of that, for combat.
My doubt is if people use them for the big ships and if it's usual. I've always used stranded,but learning about new things is important. I don't go fishing, so don't know much about spectra lines.
In the threads I found here in the forum, some people said the knot slips and they break at the ends.
And as they are forbidden for competition use, I only wanted to figure out whether or not one had any advantage using them.
As most people haven't even mentioned them, I will assume that they're not popular and therefore, I won't use them.

I'm surprised, though, with the "popularity" of solids.... May give them a run... ;)

Marcus
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Action is his reward, look out
Here comes Marcus, man..."

Offline rustler

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2012, 01:20:56 PM »
Over here in England we have a couple of speed classes, more or less similar size and weight. One of them bans stranded lines on the grounds of safety. The other one bans solids on the grounds of safety! You know it makes sense. Personally, what's wrong with a good old pull test?  ???
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline phil c

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2012, 02:24:16 PM »
Thanks Phil

.....In the threads I found here in the forum, some people said the knot slips and they break at the ends.
And as they are forbidden for competition use, I only wanted to figure out whether or not one had any advantage using them.
As most people haven't even mentioned them, I will assume that they're not popular and therefore, I won't use them.

I'm surprised, though, with the "popularity" of solids.... May give them a run... ;)

Marcus

All lines break at the ends.  The only time stainless lines break in the middle is if there is a defect in the wire or if the line was kinked at some point.  Vibration plays a big role.  Anytime you see the lines vibrating the wire is fatiguing.  At some point the wire will break from fatigue.


.....Personally, what's wrong with a good old pull test?  Huh?.............

The pull test is the minimum safety factor.  It is good at breaking lines that have a fatigued strand or two hidden in the termination.
phil Cartier

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2012, 04:54:19 PM »
Roger that .

 ;D
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Rafael Gonzalez

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2012, 08:12:05 AM »
Thank you all so much for the input. It is amazing the amount of learning and knowledge that I have gained since I started to "poke" around this website. Thank you!
The learning curve has been exponentially amplified for me. I was considering the solid venue for lines but after evaluating my ability and the work that is needed to gain an advantage on solid lines, I have opted to wait until I acquire more experience in PA. Although none of my aircrafts are a 15-17 point in A.P., your inputs have perhaps saved a plane for me at my level of precision in maneuvers and experience. However, when the competition is so fierce and close to each other, any amount of improvement transfers to a gain in performance.

I will probably do solids once I get my outside square to look like a square not like a backwards D... HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~>

Best regards,

 H^^

Offline RandySmith

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2012, 10:53:04 AM »
So Bob how often are you replacing them?

I have never used the product you suggest ; its difficult to argue with the results you and Doug share !

Looking at the Chemical composition of it however is a different story.. 85 % is isopropyl alcohol...



The most I ever get out of solids is about 50 flights, it helps if you switch the ends of the lines,from the plane to the handle about every 25 flights, maybe this will get you 75 flights out of solids. After that you replace them.

Randy

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: STRANDED vs. SOLID lines?
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2012, 09:37:23 AM »
I do use the carbon steel lines from Mike Scott.  I have found they last longer than stainless by a good number of flights.  How many, I don't know.  I have used carbon steel as many as 250 flights.

I have noticed over the years when it is actually raining they stick way less or not at all.  I have always noticed the sticking is worst in high humidity with NO rain.  I had no issues at all in the mists on Friday morning this past Nats.  BUT Saturday was a different story.  Sunny 91% humidity.  The first round was a nightmare.  Dead calm and humid.  A stunt plane on solids worst nightmare. 

I knew about no stick rain shield and have used it in the past in these situations.  I had some with me but the nozzle was broken.  It wouldn't spray.  Bob Hunt loaned me a can and I used some of his acetone.  I cleaned them out and back with acetone.  Then one pass with no stick.  That was in the pits.  Then at the circle Jake would hold the handle I would run them out dry on the way out.  It worked great.  I forgot all about the humidity.  THANKS BOB!!!!!!!!!!  I still have that can!

I have often thought I would go to cables and be done with it.  I have tried a couple of time but it just isn't the same.  I will try it again this fall a Ted handle and some Tom Morris .018 stands and we will see what we get.  I tried this change once a smaller full sized stunter and as Brett said it was as if my hand was on the bell crank.  It was awesome and the plane was a BEAST!  I have tried that combo on my larger planes on several different ones and I can't seem to groove it....  I will still take another look and see.
Doug Moon
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