Author Topic: So it begins - Avenger 35 (Read 36005 times)

Randy Powell · « **on:** September 19, 2011, 11:15:09 AM »

So, I was finally able to start building my Don Shultz Avenger 35 (specifically for VSC next year) on Sunday. Cut out templates and started selecting wood and such. I think I'll start with the fuse since it's fairly complicated and I haven't built one like it before. I'm using Pat Johnston laser cut ribs and spars (from Mark Scarborough cut files) but the rest is Don's original plan.

I'll post some pics as soon as there's something to take pictures of.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2011, 01:11:49 PM »

Have fun Randy, I am looking forward to this build,, this will be the first time I have been down a path before you,, LOL,, cant wait to see how you resolve some of the little "hmmmm" moments I had

Randy Powell · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2011, 01:29:36 PM »

Mark,

The fuse structure is the only thing I'm really concerned with. While this sort of layout was, well, not common in the 60s but certainly done a lot, it's a complicated way to accomplish the thing. I'm mostly concerned with how to keep everything aligned. The wing is pretty straight forward. I'm still decided on weather I'm going to go with sheet flaps and tail surfaces or built up. We'll see on that. At least I don't have to cut out 60 ribs.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2011, 08:01:16 PM »

Sorry, my SD card pucked out on my camera. I'll pick another up tomorrow and get some pictures up.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #4 on:** September 22, 2011, 12:50:43 PM »

I spent a LOT of time looking at the plans trynig to figure out how it all went together. there is not much meat around the wing on the fuse sides. The whole vertical "strake" and getting a carbon pushrod through it is shall we say fun? ( I am guessing Shultzie never used carbon pushrods eh?)

Randy Powell · « **Reply #5 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:59:50 PM »

Mark,

Two things: I'm using an 1/8" carbon tube for the push rod. I'm hoping it will fit through there. Should. Second, I'm not cutting the wing cutout out of the fuselage. I'm going to do it sort of like an I-Beam and just cut the leading and trailing edge and spar out and build the wing in two halves and then attach through the cut outs. It will be much easier to keep the fuse straight though the process and it should be easy to block stuff up with inserting the wing and get it all aligned. The trick will be insuring the cuts in the fuse are dead straight.

Hope that's clear. I'll post pics as I go along to illustrate.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #6 on:** September 22, 2011, 08:20:30 PM »

That should work ok, I had contemplated that aproach as well, but finally decided on jus tbuilding the wing complete. I also built the fuse in halves though, front and rear, joined them on the wing. It worked out well actually

john e. holliday · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2011, 08:31:08 AM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on September 22, 2011, 12:50:43 PM

I spent a LOT of time looking at the plans trynig to figure out how it all went together. there is not much meat around the wing on the fuse sides. The whole vertical "strake" and getting a carbon pushrod through it is shall we say fun? ( I am guessing Shultzie never used carbon pushrods eh?)

Did they even have carbon back then???

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:18:38 AM »

Yeppers, the carbon black from the oil lamps,, which they made ink from to draw up the plans,,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2011, 02:01:38 PM »

Mark,

And after this conversation, I had yet another idea on a way to do this more simply. I'll post pics when I get there, but I think it might be easier to just build the fuse box and wing simultaneously.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:54:45 PM »

Oh, and Mark, I'm using the 3/16" sides. I found some stock that is pretty stiff and still 3lb stock.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2011, 07:42:32 PM »

OK, here's some pics after about 3 hours work.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2011, 11:15:21 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on September 25, 2011, 07:42:32 PM

OK, here's some pics after about 3 hours work.

Following your progress with much interest Randy. BTW it took me 3 hours to just mask off the canopy today.

Bill

Randy Powell · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2011, 10:18:09 AM »

Bill,

Yea, this stage it seems there are a lot of pieces that get worked on individually. Doesn't seem like you make any real progress until all of a sudden, you're ready to put things together. Because of they way this plane's fuse is built, I modified the construction from the plan in order to sort of build the fuse and wing at the same time. Should be interesting. It will go together something like an I-Beam wing plane is built. Getting the nose components together and milling stuff to save weight is taking all the time at the moment.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2011, 05:22:22 PM »

This will be a fun one to watch Randy, ever since I first discovered it I've thought it was a really good looking design.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #15 on:** September 26, 2011, 06:02:19 PM »

Hey Wayne,

Well, it will be interesting. I've never build a Stingray like fuse before. I'll try no to goof it up.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2011, 12:53:46 AM »

You make quick work of it, Randy. Looks great so far......

Shultzie · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2011, 01:57:12 PM »

Listening to all you youngin's RAZZIN' N' JAZZIN ABOUT ALL US OLD STUNT-KOOTS BACK IN
"THE EARLY CLPA WRIGHT BROTHER DAZE DAYS OF THE 60'S"
Uhhhh?
Yes....Although my memories have been dulled and faded---- starting with my limited DNA n' gene pool....then combined with years of sniffin too many dope n' paint fumes...too many long overtime long hours at the Boeing Company Wind tunnels and then finally hidden away in the archives...n' Phatom Works until my retirement in 2004!!!
BOTTOM LINE: As all of you WELL KNOW BY NOW... has killed the majority of my toy airplane brain cells---"HAVING SAID, SAD N' DUNG" all those things....
A few facts still remains.
Yes!
Thank the Great Lord n' Hobby Poxy...along with fiberglass cloth......we managed to have both expoxy and fiberglass rods...

For clarity...
However in those daze days...expoxy batchs were never too consistant... (also NO ONE including HOBBYPOXY also seemed in the weeds when it came to writing instructions)
Also the same inconsistancy for the fiberglass rods that I also used in a few of the later models also had huge inconsistant quality.

Any hoo...back to the Avenger and Sting Rays..
Very true...I didn't have too much room left over in the aft end of the Sting Rays or My Avenger series models.... for Fiberglass rods etc. which is
basically the same construction details of the Sting Ray that BOB GIALDINI so often during late at night phone calls to Wisc.DRILLED INTO MY MEAGER CLPA INDUCED BRAIN CELLS...that in those days I THEN TOOK AS GOSPEL.

see attached photos (as soon as I get them copied.)

TOO MUCH INFO huh?
Quite sad when ya think about all this that so many of us old CLPA kootsters...didn't have available to us...some of todays latest and greatest inventions that has aided so much to the art and science of building beautiful stunt machines.

A HUGE VOTE OF THANKS AND ADMIRATION FOR MARK for his AWESOMELY BEAUTIFUL MASTER PIECE WORK OF ART...AND FOR YOU RANDY for choosing my old CLPA AVENGER KUDGLE for CLASSIC!

I SO ADMIRE BOTH OF YOU not only for your amazingly gifted CLPA but most of all for your self less friendship.
You guys give soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to soooooooooooooooooo many in our WACKY CLPA WORLD
PURPLE WITH ENVY

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:09:26 PM »

Hey SHultzie looks like your on your way to becoming an even bigger celebrity,, now there will be TWO Avengers flying in the NW,,

all I can say is that if Randy's comes out lighter than mine, it may dissapear,,

just sayin,,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:32:45 PM »

sub-45oz Mark. That's the goal.

Shultzie · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:39:28 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on September 27, 2011, 02:32:45 PM

sub-45oz Mark. That's the goal.

WOW! SUB 45OZ!! WOW!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2011, 03:29:00 PM »

Don, I'd point out that yours was only 48oz.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:19:41 PM »

Wow, sub 45 should be quite a trick. Definitely not a Toad if you can pull it off.

What does yours weigh Mark, and with what engine?

Bill Little · « **Reply #23 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:32:15 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on September 27, 2011, 02:32:45 PM

sub-45oz Mark. That's the goal.

Very "doable" with your building techniques and using LIGHT wood. Just don't put a 12 ounce finish on it!

Big Bear

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2011, 05:54:45 AM »

Quote from: Shultzie on September 27, 2011, 02:39:28 PM

WOW! SUB 45OZ!! WOW!

And look at that fantastical complicated paint job on the plane.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2011, 11:00:08 AM »

Mark's is, uh, heavier than that and he put a Magnum 53 in it. Part of the weight was he modified the nose to accept the bigger engine.

I already have a paint scheme figured out. And it will be dead simple and thin.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2011, 01:40:46 PM »

well mine is NOT 45 oz,, in part to the finishing woes I suffered, in part to the monster motor I used, and in part to , well, lets say its not the woods fault ok?
I made a couple decisions that cost me ounces, one was to shorten the nose because, well, I was using a monster motor,, now I have to carry a substantial amount of nose weight because when I did the math I screwed up and used the wrong weight for the Magnum,, yeah I know measure twice cut once,, well thats what I did,, but,,
in any case, I am flying at right around 60 ounces, which actually on a 640 inch wing is not that bad, and it flies fine,, no problems in coffin corner, no problems with overhead, and dear heavens it has line tension to spare!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2011, 03:25:23 PM »

Mark,

I actually have some concern (some, not much) that the plane, if finished where I am planning it and hey, I could be off my nut, that it will be too light and need ballast like Ted's Tucker Special. Now, I will grant you, neither instance is likely (that it will be "too light" or that it will need ballast), but I have thought about it. More realistically, I'm going to do everything I can think of and a few things I'll probably invent for the occasion to keep the weight down. I was going off of Don's statement of the original plane's weight: 48oz. Truth is, I'd be thrilled out of my mind if I could keep it in the 50-52oz range. I think it would be killer at that weight, but if I can get it lighter, well, to paraphrase the old axiom, it's a lot easier to add weight to the thing than remove it.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #28 on:** September 28, 2011, 04:11:44 PM »

I will be very interested actually if you manage the 45 oz weight, it could be a great way to quantify some of the legend about lighter is always better. flying them back to back could prove some elightenment.
Of course likely it will be you flying both back to back, not sure I would want to fly yours,, LOL,, although with my 10 foot bottoms the risk is certainly lessened

Not to say I that I havent in the past exceeded that margin for error, but not lately anyway,,
In any case, I am really looking forward to how you contend with some of the "differences " in construction compared to my solutions,, it should be fun.

Oh did Pat cut the landing gear parts for you too? and the 1/64 rib doublers?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2011, 08:55:55 PM »

Will Randy's Revenger (sic) use the PA .40 Merlin out of the Cobra and Shoestring?

Steve

Randy Powell · « **Reply #30 on:** September 28, 2011, 09:36:36 PM »

Steve,

Hard to tell. I have two of them.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #31 on:** September 28, 2011, 10:53:57 PM »

Carve, hollow, sand, sand, sand...

Good luck Randy!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #32 on:** October 02, 2011, 09:17:07 PM »

OK, so progress. The aluminum mounts are milled out to lighten them. Looking pretty good so far.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #33 on:** October 03, 2011, 10:29:27 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on October 02, 2011, 09:17:07 PM

OK, so progress. The aluminum mounts are milled out to lighten them. Looking pretty good so far.

A-HA! It's the old "milled and lightened aluminum mount" trick!!!

I wonder what Mark is building?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #34 on:** October 04, 2011, 10:03:20 AM »

Wayne,

Considering his work load, probably not much at the moment. Besides, someday he's going to have to finish that 109 (of course, I could say that someday, I have to finish the Bearcat sitting under my bench.)

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #35 on:** October 04, 2011, 10:43:38 AM »

yeah, the 109, the electrajet, and then a Gypsy maybe, or a new PA airplane,, someday,, sigh,,
not even sure if I will be making fall follies now,, grrrrr

Randy Powell · « **Reply #36 on:** October 04, 2011, 02:01:33 PM »

Yea, I heard from Pat that he can't make it and now it looks as though my attendance, if I can go at all, will be restricted to a blast down on Sunday morning, fly, then a blast back.

Ain't the work environment interesting right now? Heck, most of us are so glad to have a job that we'll do most anything to stay employed.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #37 on:** October 04, 2011, 10:01:56 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on October 04, 2011, 10:03:20 AM

Wayne,

Considering his work load, probably not much at the moment. Besides, someday he's going to have to finish that 109 (of course, I could say that someday, I have to finish the Bearcat sitting under my bench.)

Yeah, I just had to toss it out there again.

Didn't know you've been buried in work Mark, that kinda sucks but considering the alternative these days I can relate. I think we all go through cycles on it, but for a while now I've been deep in that cycle where I am completely sick of my job and anything to do with it. I keep telling myself I've got to start playing the lotto, but that would probably be even more depressing. At least we have this great hobby and it's people, it definitely helps me get through the down times.

Now, ahem, what Bearcat do you have stashed away Randy?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #38 on:** October 05, 2011, 09:47:33 AM »

Hi Wayne,

I designed a Reno Air Racer Bearcat some years ago. I built the fuselage and some other components then just sort of put it away. It's been sitting under my bench for quite awhile. I pull it out every once in awhile and contemplate finishing it, but then I just put it away again.

proparc · « **Reply #39 on:** October 05, 2011, 09:56:39 AM »

Randy, can't tell you how much I enjoy your building posts. If you and Windy Urtnowski could hook up, you guys would revolutionize classic stunt plane building instruction!!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #40 on:** October 05, 2011, 11:52:33 AM »

Pro,

Well, I try. I didn't work on it last night as I had the late shift at work. Hopefully I can get out there tonight and get the blocks roughed in. Wait till you see how I'm going to do the wing and fuse together. Should be interesting anyway.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #41 on:** October 07, 2011, 07:47:08 PM »

Well, I didn't work on it tonight. Instead, I spent a hour designing the paint scheme and graphics. May have come up with something simple and cool. I like it anyway.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2011, 09:51:07 PM »

Randy, sure wish we were about 4 hours closer together, I would be over checking progress all the time! I kinda love this plane so I am anxious to see yours take shape...
I want to build another,,, lighter,,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #43 on:** October 08, 2011, 06:16:46 PM »

Mark,

Here's your update:

The stab supports are under the lead weights. I used 3/32" for the supports then cross grained some 1/20" stuff. That's why they are weighed. I'm also going to put in some 1/64" ply under the stab. Big question is how much room will I have? I'd like to put in a hatch to adjust the controls but...

wwwarbird · « **Reply #44 on:** October 08, 2011, 06:56:51 PM »

This thing already looks cool.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #45 on:** October 08, 2011, 07:41:38 PM »

Yea, I sure like the design. I'm heading back out to start carving next. Fun, fun, fun. I lucked out, though. Turns out I have a bellcrank and leadouts already put together (from the Novi I built and piled in). So, that's on thing I don't have to build again.

Bill Little · « **Reply #46 on:** October 09, 2011, 03:41:44 PM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on September 28, 2011, 04:11:44 PM

I will be very interested actually if you manage the 45 oz weight, it could be a great way to quantify some of the legend about lighter is always better. flying them back to back could prove some enlightenment.
(snip)
In any case, I am really looking forward to how you contend with some of the "differences " in construction compared to my solutions,, it should be fun.
(snip)

Hi Mark and Randy,

Well I would rather not discuss the debate of too light to fly right and too heavy to fly right.......................

But............. I can say that if a model is too light, you can do something to fix that, but if it is too heavy, there just ain't no hope.

I cannot argue with Ted's experiment, since he has way more Walker Trophys that I could ever dream of, and his aeronautics background blows me away. But how much of it is personal trim desires? I wouldn't know. I do know that Mr. Werwage and Mr. Hunt are fanatical about building light. (and those two do have three -and counting- World Championships......)
Going as far as Billy saying he thinks a model "could be built too light but he has never done it". You do realize that Billy's USA-1 and his P-47 "Geo Bolt" (w/PA and pipe) are both under 60oz...............

I will continue to build as light as possible (and haven't had one blow up in the air yet

)

Bill

Randy Powell · « **Reply #47 on:** October 09, 2011, 06:06:30 PM »

So, a bit more done.

The rudder is supposed to be 1/8" sheet, but I cut is from 3/8" so I can carve in a fillet. It will be 1/8" when I'm done. The stab support thingies (that's a technical term) are 3/32" sheet with 1/20" sheet crossgrain then a 1/64" plywood support. Fun stuff. The fuse is roughed in on the top.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #48 on:** October 09, 2011, 11:46:49 PM »

...trying to visualize how the stab support thingies go on.

From what it looks like on the plan in the background, they must attach to the top of the fuse. Must be fun rigging up the pushrod for this one.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #49 on:** October 10, 2011, 09:18:23 AM »

They are sides and insert into the fuse through a slot in the top. And yes, the pushrod set is going to be interesting.