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Author Topic: Ukraine Needs Bullets  (Read 51791 times)

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Ukraine Needs Bullets
« on: February 20, 2024, 11:35:58 AM »
how sad and maddening. What's the point of keeping this thread. Since no one steps up to protest the hideous blockage of aid to an invaded Democratic nation. A nation heroically fighting to stay independent.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2024, 11:44:25 AM »
During The Cold War, 1945 through 1991, the USA provided the weapons, money, and fighting men to contain the USSR, now again called "Russia".

During those 46 year billions and billions of dollar were spent on weapons that became obsolete and were scrapped out without even bien used.

Now, in The Ukraine, we have good fighting men ready and willing to kill The Russians, and out criminal president won't even give them some old ammunition. Hell, Biden won't need it.  He's too senile to fight anybody.

Here's a president who blew out four Trillion dollars in giveaways just to bribe his vote stuffers.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2024, 07:12:42 PM »
In checking out the BAE Systems site and a few other public sources I was able to find this.

Israel has 280 AGS-aimed 155mm Paladin guns (have guns will travel).  The Muslim Hamas Gazas are yelping about this.
At total of 1,729 of these weapons have been sold to 23 Islamic nations, including Israel's enemies.
Current free world production is only 100,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition per year.
The Ukraine has been consuming 10,000 rounds per day during major actions.  This is unsustainable.
Fear not!  The USA and the EU have increased production, productivity and productiveness so that in 2025 the output of 155mm projectiles  will be over 1.7 Million rounds.  This will assure that BOTH The Ukraine and Israel will be able to hold off their enemies without the need to ration ammunition.

Israel's Paladins include the latest BAE military grade GPS that assures that every round will destroy its target with zero chance of collateral damage.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2024, 10:49:39 AM »
Well if we had politicians with common sense the Ukraine would not be in trouble and Putin would be begging for help as if he hasn't gotten already from our current government.   What irks me is browsing throgh the internet I see one that says Ukraine is doing good  and the next says the Russians are doing good.  It would be great if the media would just tell the truth. S?P
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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2024, 12:02:22 PM »
During The Cold War, 1945 through 1991, the USA provided the weapons, money, and fighting men to contain the USSR, now again called "Russia".

During those 46 year billions and billions of dollar were spent on weapons that became obsolete and were scrapped out without even bien used.

Now, in The Ukraine, we have good fighting men ready and willing to kill The Russians, and out criminal president won't even give them some old ammunition. Hell, Biden won't need it.  He's too senile to fight anybody.

Here's a president who blew out four Trillion dollars in giveaways just to bribe his vote stuffers.

Odd take, considering it is Speaker Johnson (and the Maga minority in the house that hold him hostage) who refuses to take up a bill on sending additional military aid to Ukraine.
The fact that the  majority of the public, members of congress and the Senate are in favour of it seems not to matter.

If you are not aware of this, you might want to expand your sources of information.
MAAC 8177

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2024, 12:11:28 PM »
The art of compromise doesn't give everybody everything they want.
My package  includes everything Israel and The Ukraine need to defend themselves and the total closure of US borders to illegal entry.
The price to achieve these goals is a tiny percentage of "stimulus" money that is blindly scattered about.
Once lost, Israel, The Ukraine and the USA will not rise again. 
Paul Smith

Offline Bill Schluckbier

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2024, 09:30:57 AM »
Paul,

Much of the direct aid provided by the US to the Ukraine came from stocks which were already in Europe for the purpose of fighting the USSR.  The Bradley's which the US committed to providing generally fall under this category.  Although they still have "value", they were already paid for a long time ago.  Much of the military aid that provided early on fell in this category.  Newer equipment such as the HIMARS, ATACMS and others cannot be lumped into this category.  You may not remember but the US kept saying that the Russians were coming before the war started and warned the Ukraine.  Other countries did not, for example, in France, the President fired his Minister of Defense (or similar) for not interpreting the intelligence correctly.

Politically, in the lower house of Congress, providing aid to the Ukraine has proven unpopular and based on the comments made by one of the candidates regarding NATO it would appear to me that he would be willing to let the Ukraine go to Putin along with a few other European countries.

Although in terms of the gross amount, the US has provided the largest share of aid, other countries have provided more as a percentage of their GDP, including one of the countries (Germany) which one of the candidates has been critical of in the past:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

The summer offensive did not achieve what they were hoping to and a few days they lost one of the key cities (at least symbolically) that they had retaken. Personally, I would like to see them win but realistically I no longer think that it is possible unless something drastically changes within Russia.

This has been a coming to Jesus moment for the US and other countries, not only in Europe but Asia as well.  It was estimated that if NATO had committed all of their air assets they might have been able to establish air superiority over portions of the Ukraine for a maximum of two weeks.  Probably not enough to win the war.  The RAF is stretched thin with too many commitments around the world; good training for the aircrews but rough on the equipment. The US strategy has always been to establish air superiority first which meant having plenty of missiles and bombs but as we have been, in a near peer scenario, that might not be possible. 

Although the Ukraine needs the 155 mm shells, they US has come to realize that it needs them as well.  In broader terms, the US military has come to realize that how they fight the next war might be different from what they had expected.  For example, the Air Force relies on the Navy Growlers for electronic warfare, something they gave up after the F111 was retired.  One of the first things sent to Europe when the war started were 6 Growlers to collect electronic data (ELINT).  Further, the Navy is starting to become a larger part of the budget as they try maintain and improve their capabilities with an eye on China.  The new frigate program is an example of that; they are also thinking about fighting in smaller, more dispersed groups. Drones will also play an important part as well.  Canada is getting new ships, so are Australia and Japan.  And we will need their help if Taiwan becomes a thing.





« Last Edit: February 25, 2024, 06:08:33 PM by Bill Schluckbier »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2024, 07:48:55 AM »
Under the Romanov's Russia tried to take land whenever it was weakly defended for 305 years.
The USSR did the same from 1917 to 1991.
I don't know what they call the current regime, but the expansionism continues.

In the absence of a kill shot to Moscow and Saint Petersburg, the ongoing response to continue stepping on their stepping on their fingers when they make a land grab.  I'm all in favor of peace with Russia, as long as they remain in Russia.  This has not been any different since 1605. 
Paul Smith

Offline AirClassix

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2024, 02:34:51 PM »
Oh my!  Me thinks there are some glaring omissions here ...

(1) Even as Russia massed tens of thousands of troops on the border with Ukraine, Ole Joe put a hold on American aid.  (a bird in the hand ...)  Quick, go back and do some reading again, then please - for the sake of intellectual integrity - acknowledge the FACT.  He was going to use "diplomacy", remember!?!

(2) House Republicans have a simple request of the Administration's proposals for aid: tell us how to PAY for it.  I doubt any of us want to bankrupt our grandchildren's futures any further by financing proxy wars with Russia.  And a reminder: The Soviet Union didn't crumble because of cold winters or because its citizens drank too much Vodka, but because of a lack of $.  Reagan seemed to understand that would be their downfall and helped engineer it.

And, while I'm at it, (3) We, like Israel and much of the rest of the civilized world, are in a much less stable place today because of the administration of a man named Obama.  Can you find ONE - JUST ONE - instance of a President Obama referring to the threat of Islamic Terrorism?  I thought not ...

But you will find that when an Army Doctor proudly claimed killing 13 American soldiers in the name of jihad, his administration labeled it ... "workplace violence."  That when the Yemeni government announced to the delight of Islamic militants that we closed our embassy in Yemen, Obama's Press Secretary labeled it ... "a reduction in staff."  That "the global war on terror" became ... "an overseas contingency operation."

'Nuff said?
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Bill Schluckbier

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2024, 07:08:45 PM »
A little light reading...

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040

I do recall some of the US aid being held back, but I believe that it was before the invasion and it was tied to the Ukrainians being able to address some of the rampant corruption.  I could not find any solid references, maybe if you have some, you could share.  This is the best I could find:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/

The other thing to keep in mind is that the nature of the military aid changed over time, initially it focused on providing them with equipment that they were familiar with (i.e. old Soviet Block stuff) and once that dried the emphasis shifted to Western equipment.  Much of it was done based on promises to countries such as Poland that whatever military aid they gave would be replaced.

If you recall, none or very little of the initial funding for the war in Iraq was part of the budget process and that happened under a Republican administration. The point is, it is very difficult to say that one side did something when in all likelihood, the accusing side had also done the same.  Neither one is right but it undermines the point.  I understand that they now want to give the impression of being fiscally responsible but that is not what history shows.  An yes, I am expecting you to show me the accumulation of US debt next...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S

Offline AirClassix

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2024, 09:51:03 PM »
With all due respect Bill, you're doing some "cherry picking" ...

Can we agree it's better to have aid before a battle starts as opposed to after?  If so, did Biden hold up aid before Ukraine was invaded?  Yes or no?  You do remember Obama sent bandages and Trump sent missiles, right?

You mention Iraq - did Obama insist we must set a withdrawal date before committing to increased forces?  "We're gonna throw the kitchen sink at ya ... well, at least until next July."

Syria.  I'd like to laugh at Obama's "red line", but crying would be more appropriate.  How many Russians died in Syria as a result of Trump's decisions?  Serious observers might suggest Obama seemed to hope all this "terror stuff" would just quietly go away ...

Germany.  Great contributions to Ukraine's defense.  Good!  (We won't go into the anticipated rewards for their military ...)  But what percentage of their GDP did they spend on defense prior to the war?  Please, don't pick and choose - give us ALL the numbers!  (Can we add in the extent to which Germany financed Russia's war by buying energy from Russia!?!)

The very sad fact is in our country we have a large group of politicians who seem much more interested in enforcing "proper pronouns" than in protecting our own national security as well as democracies around the world.

Dennis
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 05:00:21 PM by Dennis Leonhardi »
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Bill Schluckbier

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2024, 03:07:03 PM »
I see.  Take a look at the enclosed article about the "favor" which the ex-president asked for as a condition for the transaction.  The text is towards the end. Always keeping the greater good in mind...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/15/trump-resisted-ukraine-sale-javelin-antitank-missile/

I enclosed the snap of the article that gets to the point...  We can round and round which is not a sensible use of our time. Over and out.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 04:36:01 PM by Bill Schluckbier »

Offline AirClassix

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Re: Ukraine Needs Bullets
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2024, 04:59:51 PM »
Yada, yada, yada.  He said, she said ... John Kennedy instituted a naval blockade because he was a sailor.  My daddy can beat up your daddy.

I choose to look at results.  You still convinced Biden didn't hold up aid to Ukraine, Bill?

You're right.  When we choose to ignore FACTS, discussion is pointless.   Over and out.

Dennis

Afterthought: I think one of the most disgusting individuals I've ever seen was the "witness" who stated he is the EXPERT on Ukraine.  There are about a zillion EXPERTS in Washington who need to GO.  Humility is NOT their primary asset.
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

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