General control line discussion > Ukraine Info
Question For Americans: Are You Proud !?!
Dennis Leonhardi:
--- Quote from: Jim Carter on August 09, 2022, 10:43:52 AM ---Thank you Mike! I applaud your research and clarification. It really gets frustrating when facts and intents get twisted for self-serving purposes or cheap soundbites.
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Golly gee whiz Jim, you earlier withdrew from a personal discussion of FACTS, clinging instead to the "victim" card ... and now you want "facts"?
I'll begin by reminding all that it was decidedly in America's best interest to be involved in the Budapest Memorandum because Ukraine possessed "some 1,240 nuclear warheads and 592 nuclear warheads aboard bombers" intended for us.
Secondly, I'll restate the language issue -
"The term 'security assurances' in the Ukrainian text has been translated as 'security guarantees', while all the signatories except Ukraine meant political assurances." FACT. https://www.mfaua.org/en/publications/the-budapest-memorandum-the-truth-behind-the-myths
And, from a U.S. diplomat involved in the negotiations -
"The Budapest Memorandum consists of a series of political assurances whereby the signatory states commit to 'respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine'. But the meaning of the security assurances was deliberately left ambiguous. According to a former US diplomat who participated in the talks, Steven Pifer, it was understood that if there was a violation, there would be a response incumbent on the US and the UK. And while that response was not explicitly defined, Pifer notes that 'there is an obligation on the United States that flows from the Budapest Memorandum to provide assistance to Ukraine, and […] that would include lethal military assistance'. https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-what-is-the-budapest-memorandum-and-why-has-russias-invasion-torn-it-up-178184
"U.S. officials did assure their Ukrainian counterparts, however, that there would be a response. The United States should continue to provide reform and military assistance to Ukraine. It should continue sanctions on Russia. It should continue to demand that Moscow end its aggression against Ukraine. And it should continue to urge its European partners to assist Kyiv and keep the sanctions pressure on the Kremlin."
"Washington should do this, because it said it would act if Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum. That was part of the price it paid in return for a drastic reduction in the nuclear threat to America. The United States should keep its word." https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/
In the words of President Abraham Lincoln, "You must remember that some things legally right are not morally right."
Now: Did you approve of Biden withholding military aid while Russian troops massed on the Ukranian border? Yes or No?
Dennis
PS: You can write any definition you want on Wikipedia for the Memorandum. Maybe best to avoid that as a definitive source ...
Wayne Collier:
--- Quote from: Teodorico Terry on April 17, 2022, 02:30:10 PM ---The US is not a communist country but it is at risk of becoming a Fascist one however.
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Terry, Realizing that there are technical differences in the terms socialist, communist, and facism. Historically, as it affects the common citizen, the only practical difference seems to be which people group is selected for hatred and extermination, and which group is considered elite.
Or as a high school civics teacher once put it, it doesn’t matter if you run off the left side of the bridge or the right side of the bridge, you end up in the same river.
That being said, what do you mean when you use the term facist, and what are you observing that makes you fear we are leaning that way?
Teodorico Terry:
Wayne,
I like the way your civics teacher phrased his response, there are a lot of similarities between the two. I used the term as a pejorative. If you look at the other "ism" there are a lot of characteristics which carry over across all of them so in some respects they look similar. What I see in the U.S. is the rise of Nationalism, particularly of the Christian variety as being worrisome, an intentional erosion of the trust in the institutions which are the foundation of the government, in particular of the process by which we choose who will represent us. There are other reasons as well but in this forum I am basically the minority and it is just not worth the hassle.
With regard to the Ukraine I think that it is naive of people to expect that it would be more than a proxy war for the U.S. and other Western countries; it is probably as far as the U.S. can go without a direct confrontation. Long term strategy is probably simply to wear out Russia economically and degrade their military readiness. All of this only works as long as the Ukrainians are able to keep an effective fighting force. Just like the Russians they are probably also experiencing significant losses in personnel which they will find harder to replace. The story being told in the news is definitely lopsided in favor the Ukrainians; we hear about the losses on the Russian side on a regular bases but very little on the Ukrainian side. In that respect they have handled the P.R. aspect of the war much better than the Russians. This is a crappy and stupid war and sure hope that the Ukrainians prevail.
Teo
Ken Culbertson:
--- Quote from: Teodorico Terry on September 06, 2022, 08:16:52 AM ---There are other reasons as well but in this forum I am basically the minority and it is just not worth the hassle.
If you are confident in your views then there is no point in debating them when you are in the majority. That is nothing more than an echo chamber. As long as you can keep it on point and avoid the name calling you will find most here eager to engage.
This is a crappy and stupid war and sure hope that the Ukrainians prevail.
All wars are crappy and stupid in my opinion. They are rarely started by the people that actually have to fight them.
Ken
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Teodorico Terry:
t
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