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Author Topic: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator  (Read 2639 times)

Offline Mark wood

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Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« on: December 01, 2021, 09:18:20 PM »
As a continuation of the series of videos I have been making I put together a vane type Angle Of Attack indicator and filmed it. It is interesting to see. I have seen some speculation and some calculations predicting what he AOA is which has a number of dependencies' which make it a bit tough to know precisely. As has been said many times before one good test is worth a thousand calculated opinions.  Have a look:



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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2021, 11:10:44 PM »
As a continuation of the series of videos I have been making I put together a vane type Angle Of Attack indicator and filmed it. It is interesting to see. I have seen some speculation and some calculations predicting what he AOA is which has a number of dependencies' which make it a bit tough to know precisely. As has been said many times before one good test is worth a thousand calculated opinions.
If the markings are degrees I am both surprised and not surprised at how small a change in AOA creates enough lift to do, well everything.  Quite honestly, I was expecting more and given the number of markings on the gauge, so were you.  The SV is a really good plane.  Is yours powered enough to maneuver cross wind?  I am curious how much difference air speed makes.  I would suggest putting an airspeed gauge on that mount you cooked up *in a day* but you might just do it, so I won't. LL~

Great work - Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2021, 07:31:12 AM »
If the markings are degrees I am both surprised and not surprised at how small a change in AOA creates enough lift to do, well everything.  Quite honestly, I was expecting more and given the number of markings on the gauge, so were you.  The SV is a really good plane.  Is yours powered enough to maneuver cross wind?  I am curious how much difference air speed makes.  I would suggest putting an airspeed gauge on that mount you cooked up *in a day* but you might just do it, so I won't. LL~

Great work - Ken

Honestly Ken, I was expecting 5 - 10 degrees based upon the airplane configuration, observation of the exit from the corners and a previous aerodynamic analysis. The marks are in 5 degree increments and I made the ark +/- 25 degrees in order to be able to measure the extremes which could go as high as 20 degrees. It's hard for me to to say exactly but the maximum occurs in the squares, thank you Mr Obvious, where the values look to be 7 - 10 degrees. This is likely because I have a somewhat aggressive style and I tend to push the corners pretty hard. In this video, I did not push super hard and definitely didn't hit full deflection but fairly close as can be seen by the proximity of the nose of the spade to the wing surface.

I need  to make a point here that the AOA indicator is not in the perfect location and does have some influence from the flow field of the wing airfoil. To avoid that, it would have to be extended past the wing tip a foot or two but it is useful to gain an understanding of magnitude. It would be a simple thing to add another vane on the support to get an idea of airspeed but then there is the difficulty of calibration. In general the vane type AS indicators are not very accurate and are susceptible to G force inaccuracies. One would be totally inaccurate in a loop for instance. Notice the bob weight on the front of the AOA vane, it is there to remove the influence of G forces. I'm not entirely certain what additional understanding an airspeed indicator would provide as the propeller is a fairly good regulator of speed.

In general using the ideas for analysis presented in Circular Airflow we would predict something close to 0-5 degrees which is close to observation. One thing that I think would be helpful is a position indicator on the flaps. Since this airfoil looks to be pretty much a 20% - 22% NACA section, I used 20% in my model to make the support feet which fit, determining the Cl would be straight forward knowing the flap parameters. In the ideal world the AOA around the corners would be consistently 0 degrees which is the end goal of all of the efforts I am working towards.

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2021, 07:18:50 PM »
I need  to make a point here that the AOA indicator is not in the perfect location and does have some influence from the flow field of the wing airfoil.

Yup.  It's hard to find a good place for one, isn't it?  You might be able to calibrate that location by testing it mounted on a car or something. 
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2021, 08:10:47 PM »
Yup.  It's hard to find a good place for one, isn't it?  You might be able to calibrate that location by testing it mounted on a car or something.

Thanks Howard, it sure is. I don't think I'm that interested in being Al/Burt... ;) I could make it much taller too which would work and my camera can see it. Honestly though, the error is probably in the 1-2 degree or less zone. This is better than most simple math models get and certainly enough to design an airfoil using one of those math models with. My objective is focused on how do I get a good idea of what Cl I should be designing for? I can calculate that Cl statically easily. And I can use Franks (Igors) method. And I can do a measurement. When those converge, I have strong confidence in success.
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“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2021, 08:57:25 PM »
One thing the AoA indicator doesn't measure is the actual angle of attack of the cambered wing with flap deflected. So you have that, the tip effects, and inertial effects with which to contend. I think you can accommodate these somewhat with different placement (it can be inboard) and addition of a flap indicator not aligned with the A0A indicator's span-wise position.

You are confounding the measurement by using an unconventional definition of angle of attack as if it has some physical significance, which it doesn’t.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2021, 10:55:17 PM »
if it were say a few inches out from the tip , there might be no influence from the wings airflow .

What its really recording is vertical yaw , or  mush . To be technical , or not . We could invent a word if there isnt one .

Hitched a lift to the field once , On the tray of a flatdeck . Lifted the plane into the airflow above the cab - on a straight .
Had the firm grip on the fuse. undercarage , put one  finger on a flap T.E. . Moving it down some , the plane forcefully lifted
so I backed of and checked the road ahead then retreated behind the cab as there was a corner soon & the flatter road was
hence. The thought was , theres many pounds of force in lift with a small %age load deflection .

Hanging that plane on a line , like you do seeing how tight it;ll loop - inside & outside - where it slows right down & does the Bi-Slob tricks
would get the A.o.A. indicator more lively we would assume .
Good to see valid factual info / data produced . Anyway .

And yes , WING A.o.A. is entry ( seperation point ) to departure point ( Flap T E ) so a few more fings visable'd give more data .
A vertcal comb at the L E ( in front off ) with say fluro coton ' teeth ' might capture ' the Split ' of airflow forward .

Nother thought is the olde Pitot Tube placement & correction ( pressure ) factors , as relevant . But good effort there , thanks .

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2021, 09:05:51 AM »
if it were say a few inches out from the tip , there might be no influence from the wings airflow .

It would need to be about two wing chords away to be fully clear of the influence of the wing in forward or lateral directions. Or I can simply run an aerodynamic model and calculate the flow field and make a correction. Which I've done. The correction turns out to be about 1.5 to 1.8 degrees.

What its really recording is vertical yaw , or  mush . To be technical , or not . We could invent a word if there isnt one .

We have one, it's called angle of attack.

And yes , WING A.o.A. is entry ( seperation point ) to departure point ( Flap T E ) so a few more fings visable'd give more data .
A vertcal comb at the L E ( in front off ) with say fluro coton ' teeth ' might capture ' the Split ' of airflow forward .

No, AOA is measured With Respect To chord line of the parent airfoil by definition and this is how I use the term. Anything else is gobbledie gook gibberish.

Nother thought is the olde Pitot Tube placement & correction ( pressure ) factors , as relevant . But good effort there , thanks .

Pitot tube systems are used on airplane to measure AOA this is true and they require installation calibration which is also true. Both are more complicated than necessary and beyond the level of effort I wish to embark on. I do encourage you to take on such a task as it would be very interesting. I once made a device to record the altitude change of my FF models. It wasn't very useful as the data was very tough to adequately evaluate.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 09:55:48 AM by Mark wood »
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2021, 01:16:32 PM »
One thing the AoA indicator doesn't measure is the actual angle of attack of the cambered wing with flap deflected. So you have that, the tip effects, and inertial effects with which to contend. I think you can accommodate these somewhat with different placement (it can be inboard) and addition of a flap indicator not aligned with the A0A indicator's span-wise position.

Partially true Sege. The flap deflection definitely has an impact and more than I anticipated but not unresolvable. The trouble is that the model used to correct the AOA has it's own inherent errors. At low AOA the error isn't much 1-2 degrees. Then there is the circular trouble that I would using the model to correct the AOA for an AOA measurement I wish to use to use for the design of a new airfoil / flap combination. That kind of thing precipitates the answer prior to the analysis based upon the biases of the modeler. Not what I'm after.

The inertial effects are eliminated by the counter weight bob. Since we're talking about the first product moment and not the second product moment simple static balance is sufficient. Granted the second product effects can be seen in the transitory portions of maneuvers as evidenced by the brief oscillation seen occasionally. Watching slo mo the period seems to be short enough that majority of the square corner could be considered steady state. Or at least enough to use for AOA determination.

Moving the vane inboard would result in the same basic flow field errors as the current location.

The best way of handling the errors is to do like the big boys do and "poot eet ona Stick" out far enough in front to be away from the inflow influence. That's gotta happen and will soon. I spent an hour doing the correction analysis only to convince myself of the need. As I mentioned in another thread, the original idea was to put a sighting device on the wing tip to evaluate the yaw and roll motion in addition to maneuver alignment feedback. Adding the AOA vane was an in the moment idea and only partially thought through. About half way through the creation, I was in a hurry as it was early morning 0600 when I woke up with the idea and the day was one of those rare ones in KS with less than 10 mph winds forecast. 

The new iteration will be on an arrow shaft and will also include a flap deflection measurement. I looked at the camera field of view and I think it will fit or more likely I will work within the parameters to maintain the fit. We have another low wind day coming up next week and I'll be ready when it happens. Stay tuned.
Life is good AMA 1488
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“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2021, 05:52:41 PM »
You are confounding the measurement by using an unconventional definition of angle of attack as if it has some physical significance, which it doesn’t.

Thanks.

Mark - I see better what you are trying to do and will be interested to see what the  placement on the "stick"  yields, assuming that you have a good model of the flow ahead and radius of turn doesn't create a measurable difference.

SK

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2021, 07:23:31 PM »
Yes ,
BUT,

Olde Pommie aeromudlers from the 50s regarded say a gliders wing section as at ) deg. A.o.A. , at its ' Neutral ' lift point/ inclination .

As in a datum across the chord where lift is neutral . Zero  =  or  - .
( come up bigger so easier ti decipher here https://rclibrary.co.uk/title_details.asp?ID=1012 )



Like a prop , the point its zero thrust at that R.P.M. and speed  . ( which is unlikely to be the same as a line across the bottom ,
or even center ( if symetrical ) due to Philips Entry , and other drivle )


Following on from this approach , the A.o.A. , + or - , of a symetric airfoil at various flap deflections , when producing zero lift , would be iluminateing .
Along with the differance at those settings in angle required to produce the required lift . :P


Anaylisis , the more approches in perspective tend to broaden the scope of understanding . Like angles of flap deflection causing breakaway of flow .
But again theres variables varying that , when operating .

The big surprise is the small ange variation evedent in your film . again itd be intresting to see what happens when you ' stall turn ' it .
A favourite combat dodge , pre these large light combat jobs ..In effect a mushed square turn with trajectory alteration . Not the same
but comparable to a optimum square corner . Or is a ' clean ' square just outside these limits , or a mushed turn on the correct flightpath if at the ' impossable ' 5 Ft. radius ' correct ' . According to ' the Rules ' .
I tend to build in excess control travel , So I guess are saying I wonder what the recorder does when she is overcontroled or mushing  , and where does it start to happen . Purely  from a scientific point .

Like a 3 point fully stalled landing , on a carrier .

Good effort and glad to see you exploring the envelope there . Like  I said , the yellow thing will rotate a corner in a gale which is usefull for avoiding being blown into the deck . For someone brought up on combat .

 H^^

I guess all these years of development trying to get clean smooth square turns with mega powerplants to overcome the flap drag and maintain a even speed are contidictory or V c V ,
to the Roger Ramjet ( near ) STOP rotate POINT , which was said to be the 1960 trip where the sudden drag of the flaps allowed the square/ tight corner ( vertical )
But the ' Stall Turn ' principle still appies in the vertical as per the lateral . Just seems out of current usage ?

As In , wheres the buffet , and what happens past it . An essential in escape & evasion in dogfight control line, back then ( and now  VD~) if not in P.A. , sorry to degrtess . Just trying to get that point across .



Do we get extra points for stall turns in F2B .

I take it your plane is the SV 11 , with the smooth operateing high load capeability section . That flys smooth forever , pretty much . Not a sharp nasty one .
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 08:38:06 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2021, 09:06:25 PM »
Thanks.

Mark - I see better what you are trying to do and will be interested to see what the  placement on the "stick"  yields, assuming that you have a good model of the flow ahead and radius of turn doesn't create a measurable difference.

SK

I guess you could balance the vane aft of the pivot point to compensate for Nz, then servo the scale to compensate for pitch rate.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2021, 09:33:00 PM »




Do we get extra points for stall turns in F2B .

I take it your plane is the SV 11 , with the smooth operateing high load capeability section . That flys smooth forever , pretty much . Not a sharp nasty one .

I honestly haven't any idea what that is about. The SV11 has a NACA 20% section or very close to it.

See time mark 0:30 for a hammer (stall turn). That kind of aerobatics isn't what this discussion is about but we could go there in another thread. I'm sure Tim Just would love the opportunity to share some too.





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Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2021, 09:44:21 PM »
I guess you could balance the vane aft of the pivot point to compensate for Nz, then servo the scale to compensate for pitch rate.

Possibly. Good input. I'm not sure about the magnitude though. For the time being simply having a good look at it is good. The air data AOA / Pitot probes are balanced on the pivot. Of course the majority of my FT experience is with Helicopters and only two of those were aerobatic and part 25 jets which aren't. The turbine conversion T34 work I did was to sit in the back seat and take hand data for our inverted flight capability on the Allison B17 engine.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2021, 10:10:50 PM »
Thanks.

Mark - I see better what you are trying to do and will be interested to see what the  placement on the "stick"  yields, assuming that you have a good model of the flow ahead and radius of turn doesn't create a measurable difference.

SK

Here's a screen shot of the Hanley's Visual foil using a NACA 0020 flapped at 20% deflected to 20 degree and AOA set to 8 degrees. The flight conditions are 50 mph and sea level which results in an Rn of 360k. The 8 degree AOA was set in order to generate 11 G's which is what is required to make a 15 foot radius corner. The box to the left has the details. This particular chart is the flow field showing local velocity vectors.  It has the ability to place streamlines in as desired which I did for clarity. I took a "probe" measurement out in front of the airfoil which the point is the upper LH corner of the small data box which shows the particulars for that location of free stream velocity and the local components and the localized pressure coefficient value. From this the AOA ona stick boom should work at two chord lengths in front of the wing. I sketched in a stick and vane in the flow field.

Looking at the data box is interesting and the video results are consistent with what is predicted. At least in a first quick glance perspective. The video shows separation occurring along the TE during the squares and this run predicts separation at 83.46 % which is a fair distance up the flap. The VGs do help with this from the video. It also predicts the laminar / turbulent transition to be at 6.7% so those turbulators will probably work better at the 5% zone.

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“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2021, 12:41:13 AM »
....11 G's which is what is required to make a 15 foot radius corner.
And you want me to do a 10 footer?  ~^

Seriously, this is some really good stuff.

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2021, 06:52:35 AM »
And you want me to do a 10 footer?  ~^

Seriously, this is some really good stuff.

Ken

That pilot art is awesome.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2021, 01:28:29 PM »
Mark, thanks for showing that. It's very helpful. Neat software!

SK

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2021, 03:22:42 PM »
Mark, thanks for showing that. It's very helpful. Neat software!

SK

Thanks Serge. I've had some not the best feedback when I present stuff from it but it is a super powerful tool. XFOIL has a better laminar separation model but, for the most part we don't operate very deeply in to the area where that's an issue. Hanley's gives me answers I need, especially when I'm doing a load analysis. It is also a superior tool for en-mass comparative analysis aka dependencies study. I can blast through 70-100 runs in a hour or two and converge on a an solution or a reason to move away. I also have the Multi Surface tools which has the ability to evaluate a complete aircraft. That tool is more difficult to use and I really don't use it much. It would solve the wing flap question however, due to the difficulty and time, I just go the simple  route and work with just the section. I also have the CFD Simulation software from Autodesk that I really haven't used because it depends on solid modeling which I have been working to learn.

Today I crafted all the parts for the boom and flap position indicator and will get them mounted later. We may have a flying window tomorrow.


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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2021, 07:14:32 PM »
I made modifications to the AOA probe today. I also made a flap position indicator so I could sort out the flap position as well as someone suggested and I was figuring as well.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2021, 02:31:13 PM »
... My objective is focused on how do I get a good idea of what Cl I should be designing for? I can calculate that Cl statically easily. ...

Dunno if this is one of the mentioned methods, but you could always film the plane then calculate the acceleration & speed from the video record.  That plus the weight of the plane and the wing area would be enough to work backwards to CL.

Or, if anyone happens to have or is actively working* on a device to record acceleration in flight, you could use that to get lift, then a speed estimate + wing area to get CL.

* Unlike me -- I got started on such a project with the "big TUT", but it's currently on hold 'cuz I'm working at a startup and I'm busy.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2021, 05:51:59 PM »
Dunno if this is one of the mentioned methods, but you could always film the plane then calculate the acceleration & speed from the video record.  That plus the weight of the plane and the wing area would be enough to work backwards to CL.

Or, if anyone happens to have or is actively working* on a device to record acceleration in flight, you could use that to get lift, then a speed estimate + wing area to get CL.

* Unlike me -- I got started on such a project with the "big TUT", but it's currently on hold 'cuz I'm working at a startup and I'm busy.

Thanks Tim

Filming has been done quite a few times and it doesn't really yield good AOA results although it does put a good value on turn radius. Acceleration is easy to calculate from that and get a maneuvering Cl. It's simply V^2/(r*G) x Cl for level flight which yields around 1.3 for an 18' corner. Or I could plug it in to my software and get 1.23. Both are useful to find a value for a section to design. The next criteria would be at which AOA do I design to. Measuring the acceleration does not yield that answer. The reason this is important is that there are a thousand plus solutions. Ultimately, I could constrain the design criteria and decide that I would use 8 degrees, the angle at which a NACA 0020 with a 20% flap deflected 27 degrees needs to turn that corner. This will result in the -1 sigma current PA model. That's not what I am doing as I already have one of those left and I have plans for several really good airplanes which fit that criteria. I could use any one of those and graft a new tail and canopy on and call it my new design. That's not what I'm doing.

I have a couple GY521 boards and some code to interpret them but I'm not really very good at that stuff. I could get that data if I thought I really needed to. Howard suggested that the rate could be accounted for but the video I have indicates the vane is following fairly well and is catching up within a very short period, see the few oscillations in the transients.

Ultimately too much effort on this isn't truly worth it, reason being is that the design criteria I'm looking for does not need to come from empirical data although some does. This effort was almost a side curiosity. Again my sight device didn't start out with any AOA intent. I just had the "while I'm at it, wouldn't it be interesting to..." insert whatever. I just wanted to confirm what I could already calculate. 

There have been several discussions on why flaps on PA airplanes. Well the best reason is that an airplane with flaps presents better to the judges. An airplane without flaps has to fly at a  higher AOA, 14 vs 8 to get around the same corner and will have a greater angular distance to pitch in order to orient with the flight path trajectory. This results in the non flapped airplane having the appearance of bobbling on the exit if the airplane can even make the corner. Suffice it to say with flaps that delta between trajectory and alignment is less for a flapped airplane. I am working on a design to reduce that 8 degree AOA in the maneuver to 0-1 degrees which will result in the airplane flying through the corner tangent to the radius and have zero trajectory pitch differential and hopefully crisper exits.

The current design airplanes use smallish 20%-25% flaps and there have been some deviations to this generalization. A wing with such a configuration cannot achieve the result I am working on. This is why I did the tufting to determine empirically what the airfoil analysis tells me, the flaps begin separating around 25 degrees. There are two benefits to using a large flap deflected shallowly, first being it can be designed to achieve the stated objective and two, it will have some reduction in drag. Not a huge reduction but within the realm of noticeable 0.021 vs 0.016 kind of thing.

There is a drawback to making flaps larger and that is the hinge moment becomes quite significant. There are methods to address this. See my video on the spades. I didn't do that randomly and it was an effort to see if I had a mitigation I could employ if I were to build this machine I am considering. The answer to that is yes and I scrapped a wing design with a 25% chord flap as result and I' simply going to move to a significantly greater chord flap. This impacts the structure and consequently the airfoil selection. Therein lies the basis of motivation in this effort. I basically need to understand the operating conditions to evaluate in under to design an airfoil section which can host the necessary wing spar for this beasty.


 
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2021, 06:15:09 PM »
Update. I have two flights on the boom. The first one last night was "interesting" but I still have the airplane intact. It was a little sketchy for a moment or two. I totally underestimated the impact of the vane on the boom sticking way in front of the inboard wing. In fact it didn't even cross my mind until I was looking full on at the spinner after an outsider corner. My thought process kinda went like this. "Holy sit batman did you see that? Okay, am I going to be able to recover this when it gets to the other side? Ok, I can.. wow, that was crazy, why'd it do that?" So, I few much less aggressively and then the camera departed. It's still lying in the field someplace. I did some more maneuvers and the inside weren't too scary but anything outside produce heavy yaw oscillations. 

To address this I weighed the boom and attachment to determine the amount of weight to add to the weight box. I also taped on about 1.5" to the vertical TE. I flew again tonight and the airplane flew just fine. Trouble is the camera didn't stay on. It the one that flew off before and it hasn't worked right since the impact.

Stay tuned.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2021, 06:39:38 PM »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2021, 09:53:39 AM »
Trouble is the camera didn't stay on. It the one that flew off before and it hasn't worked right since the impact.

So when you say "camera testing" you mean you're checking how the camera does with rough handling, not that you're testing with a camera?
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2021, 10:18:55 AM »
So when you say "camera testing" you mean you're checking how the camera does with rough handling, not that you're testing with a camera?

I'm not certain I understand the question. The first flight video I made with the wing tufts, the camera flew off and impacted the ground. The video is on here some place. It came off in the last quarter of a looping maneuver and hit the ground fairly soon after that. It was a good impact and certainly tested the damage tolerance of it. This is the camera I referred to and it seems to work now. The likely reason it didn't on last nights flight was me inadvertently activating the off button when I put it on the mount. In the flight the other day a different camera fell off, like the result of older command strip and not cleaning the new mount I made of well enough. That camera remains in the field and likely will be as it was the only camera onboard and I couldn't make an accurate determination when it flew off. This one also came off in level flight and likely had a time of flight of 1.5 seconds doing 78 fps. A pretty big search area. My testing is not to test the camera but to gain a better understanding of the airflow on the wing.

For instance, when I do the evaluation of a NACA 0020 with 20% flaps deflected to 27 degrees I get the result that separation is occurring around the 80% chord position at a Cl of 1.3 and 8 degrees angle of attack. Great to know mathematically.  However, how accurate is that? Well, put tufts on the wing, strategically place some cameras onboard to watch and fly some maneuvers to see. The answer is without VGs, pretty much. VGs do seem to help with that part although handling qualities wise I can't say for sure. That needs some A-B-A tests on the same day preferably back to back which is not what my method was. The only thing I noticed there was a slight reduction in line tension, probably from the inside VGs having different alignment than the outboard.

So the effort of all of these videos is one, it's interesting and two, I'm using it for information and guidance on the next airplane I'm going to build. I'd probably build an Impact or a Crossfire but I have some ideas and experience to bring to the effort. The knowledge I've gained in all of this has helped me understand some really interesting aspects. One of them is a fuse mounted camera is a great tool to understand the airplane trim. With it I've made a couple very small trim adjustments which have helped a lot and I have another mechanism in the idea chain.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Video of wing mounted angle of attack indicator
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2021, 07:40:21 PM »
I'm not sure where I go from here in these video series using this airplane. I am going to add a moving rudder of sorts and the videos are pretty good at showing the effects. I have conceived a variation on the Rabe / Trostle / Wood rudder. In the seventies, I manufactured circle tow units which became termed "the plate style" units. The rudder activator in that system has some features I want to incorporate such as screw adjustability and separation of adjustment between the left, right and center positions. The idea behind how the circle tow works using a tow line can be used for the same functionality as the Rabe / Trostle units with the addition of being capable of screw adjustability. My SV swings its nose pretty good on the outsides and not so much in the other direction on the insides, which could be a new topic. I want a unit that can do just the one direction like Keith's can but I don't want to do a bunch of surgery in the tail of this airplane.

Anyway, here is the video I finally managed to this evening. It's pretty good and has some interesting tidbits to it. I added a flap position indicator which is calibrated in 10 degree increments up to 40 degrees maximum mark. There are short and long marks simply to make it easier to decipher and there is a carrot on the center mark. The vane scale is 5 degree increments with alternating short and longs and 20 degrees maximum mark. I meant to put a carrot on the center mark but a squirrel flew past the window and I had to change the radio station. 

I shortened the boom and balanced the wings with some lead which made the airplane fly better. It currently flies about like a new airplane and so I didn't intentionally get aggressive especially since it pointed its nose directly at me once the other evening. I'm surprised at some of the magnitudes indicated  during some of the maneuvers especially the overhead eights although I guess I shouldn't be as those are essentially very steep turns.

The calibration of marking seems a bit biased. I did my best using my laser level but it still seems a bit off.  Level flight indicates about minus 1 degree which it could be and inverted flight around 4 degrees. A quick calculation before hand would predict 1.5 degrees upright and inverted. The boom is about 14 inches in front of the quarter chord which is about where the CG is. A quick radius calculation for turning maneuvers would yield about 2 degrees correction for the turning or so.

From this I see occasional transients to what looks like 20 degrees AOA but accounting for the radius impact probably more like 17 or 18. During these transients it looks as though the controls are close to full which also surprised me as I didn't feel as though I was pushing.

This effort does seem to pay some dividends and my airfoil design effort seems to be on the right track. Or at least I have a better understanding of the things I need to pay attention to.





Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman


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