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Author Topic: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??  (Read 27178 times)

Offline Avaiojet

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Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« on: February 26, 2012, 06:34:15 PM »
I was looking over some photos I have in storage. Actually "My Photos" a file I have in my PC, but still in storage.

I'll surf the Net and just download them in this file then review them afterwards.

I noticed I had some of photos of some twins. A couple would make great semi-scale stunters, 25-40 size.

I'm curious, what would be your first choice for a twin sem-scale stunter?

Charles
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 07:00:05 PM »
Since we are into strange territory how about the Blohm and Voss Bv 237.

(Interesting design but wait ........ its single engine job so please disregard my ravings.) ;D
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 08:09:19 PM »
1.) Jack Sheeks' Mosquito

2.) Jack Sheeks' F5F-1 Skyrocket

3.) Paul Del Gatto's B-25

Those are the three I hope to get built while I am on this rock...... ;D

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Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 06:45:23 PM »
Charles, I'm curious as to what your first choice would be.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 07:09:30 PM »
Charles, I'm curious as to what your first choice would be.

Dan,

The Comet as pictured above.

Charles

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 05:06:45 PM »
Dan,

The Comet as pictured above.

Charles



The deHavilland Comet is one of the really great looking airplanes.  It will be difficult to capture the classic lines of the Comet and still have a top performing stunt ship.  The high aspect ratio of the wing with its high taper ratio does not lend itself to have a good stunt wing planform in that stunt ships with high aspect ratio wings tend to not perform as well compared to "more standard" designs in the wind.  Some have done well with higher aspect ratio wings (like the Adamisins but those airplanes have other factors working for them, not the least the ability of the pilots).  The high taper ratio means very small tips with a corresponding reduction in Reynolds Numbers which translates into poorer performance in the corners.  On the other hand, the engine nacelles lend themselves to our inverted stunt engines very nicely.

The aft fuselage is comparatively small compared to what is found on what would be classed as good stunters.  Additional side area could be obtained by adding vertical tail area, then you run into the problem of maintaining some semblance of a scale/semi-scale appearance.  Same situation with the horizontal tail where a scale tail area/planform will be relatively small.  So, you run into the problems that most semi-scale builders encounter where maintaining a "scale-like" appearance yet achieving a model that can fly a good stunt pattern is a series of compromises.  Al Rabe set the standard for this for achieving top stunt performance with top appearing super semi scale stunters.

You will need to set your goals early.  Do you want a really good scale like appearance or do you want a really good flying airplane?  One way or the other, the Comet will present its own set of compromises.

Keith

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »
Wayne,, thats a german plane, you do american planes, I do german planes, remember?

and for the record, I agree, it could make a great platform,,
as could the Me-110 and Me-210,, hmm maybe a stable mate for the 109,,, (if ever,,,,, sigh)
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 06:27:35 PM »
amd here is one for the Adamisin boys to try,,,  S?P

http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Junkers%20287.htm
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012, 06:42:17 PM »
Douglas A-26 Invader, as was in the movie, "Always."


http://www.scalefirebombers.com/b26.html

Great movie!

Charles
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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2012, 07:02:17 PM »
To me, the three best looking twins (fighters) are the deHavilland Hornet, the Grumman F7F Tigercat and the Mitsubishi Ki 83.

Al Rabe started on a Hornet many years ago, had it in paint but still has a lot of work to do including the retracts he planned.  If it is ever finished, it will be fabulous.  Windy Urtnowski flew a Tigercat at the Nats several years ago.  Nice flying airplane.  I have seen one small 1/2A scale model of the Ki 83, but non for a semiscale stunt ship.  Attractive airplane, nice proportions that would not require a lot of compromises to make it a good stunt twin.  Advantages of a twin would be to have opposite rotating engines/motors.  Neutralizes torque and gyroscopic precession.

Keith

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012, 07:21:45 PM »
My choice for a twin would be the Martin Baltimore. It has a narrow fuselage, almost in-line surfaces and good proportions for a stunt airplane. And a somewhat pleasing profile.
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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012, 07:22:23 PM »
The F7F is a consideration.

Profiles have been done.

Nice looking aircraft to model.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 08:56:27 PM »
Charles, as Keith mentioned, Windy did a full on built up F7F Tigercat,, I hear it was a good flying plane,, definetly different
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 09:49:03 PM »
Charles, as Keith mentioned, Windy did a full on built up F7F Tigercat,, I hear it was a good flying plane,, definetly different

Mark,

I'd like to know a bit more about Windy's F7F? Span, power, plans?

I went on line and took a look at some of the schemes. Lots of choices.

I have two NIB OS LA .40's.
Charles
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 10:42:55 PM »
well i dont have any more info,, however as usual, I have my opinion,, which as usual, I dont want to share,, but,, well what the heck,, LOL

two 40s would be way huge for a twin stunter,, most of the twins I have seen are BIG airplanes with two .25s on them. In fact I think some have been with .15s,, two .40s would really be overkill,, well for anything a guy would want to actually hang onto anyway ~^

that said,, the LA 40, at least in MY experience is a much less friendly stunt motor than the LA 46,, and NO I am not suggesting using two .46s on a twin,,
the LA .25 is a great motor and would make a great selection for a twin say up to 650 or 700 square inches of wing IMHO
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 10:44:18 PM »
just as an aside, I seem to recall that Windys f7f was pretty well covered in Stunt News,, If you were to Join Pampa you would have access to the archives and there is literally months worth of reading there to help further your education,,
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 10:59:58 PM »
 A Martin B-10 "Bolo" would be really cool. It would also present very nicely in the pre-war blue/yellow scheme with all the other period markings.

 I've never seen one done either.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012, 12:09:09 AM »
Wayne,,
EWWWW ,, really? sigh,,
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Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 09:33:53 AM »
I have always had a soft spot for the. . .

Henschel Hs 129 http://www.luchtoorlog.be/hs129_tek.htm

and the

Bristol Beaufighter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter

The Henschel Hs 129 in particular has some really interesting  under belly armament options which may or may not be useful in an F2B environment.....  ~^

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 10:30:59 AM »
The F7F is actually perfect.

Has the stab and elevator area, AND could have flaps.


Charles
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 12:11:54 PM »
and noboody likes the P-38???  are you kidding me?   twin engine - twin boom. looks great..

I have a B-25 that I might get around to finishing one day - if I get bak in the mood - scaled up Del-Gatto to 70" span.

there area tone of cool bombers that I'd like to do - I have seen an A26 that looked good - not sure who built it tho...
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 01:10:15 PM »
I love the P-38, It's just that with the high AR of the wings on the full scale, There are too many compromises required to make a stunter out of it. It becomes, IMNHO, a cartoon scale design.

I'm one of those who wouldn't think of using IC engines bigger than .25s. I actually prefer a pair of .15s, which will haul a 600+ sq. inch design with authority. Going bigger, it becomes a problem hanging on and finessing the model when the wind comes up.

I really like the TigerCat, The TA 154, and the Mitsubishi KI 83.
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 01:37:05 PM »
this one looks good John....

also - A guy I know - has built a DH-88 that flies extremely well and looks almost scale - I have his chicken scratch drawings for it - but it is 80" span so a bit big for me to build......and to fly in competitions.....looks good though
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 01:46:48 PM »
I LLIKEY that Mitsubishi KI 83,, not sure I remember seeing that one before,,
John, do you need a Japanese pilot now too?
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 02:57:52 PM »
Mark,,,, y1
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 02:59:57 PM »
If I can get a grip on what I have going on at the moment with models, and I'm busy, I think in about 6 months, possibly less, I can put a set of plans together for a F7F.

57" to 60" in span.

Also, 10-12 other interested modelers and I could produce a laser cut kit. Wouldn't be worth while to draw it up that way just to make one model.

Give it some thought?

Charles
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 06:05:47 PM »
My vote would be for the P-38, and I've seen a couple of very good looking stunt versions. Of course, now that electric is working so well, I might actually get two motors to run {the same}. ;->

I was wondering if anyone had seen a Cessna 310 stunter.. I always wanted Sky King's airplane!

Here's a nice rather large RC model of one, perhaps we could scale its plans? Hahah

L.

PS - Hey! Those fiberglass tip tanks (lower right of photo) look like they might make great wheel pants {maybe too heavy?}

PPS - Look at the Songbird III - what a lovely paint scheme, too. (Did Sky ever fly this airplane?)

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2012, 06:17:30 PM »
The Bamboo Bomber or the Cessna T-50, is the Sky King airplane I have interest in. Original "Songbird."

I actually have the Wing Mfg., foam wing, fiberglass parts and plans for the T-50. Thing is, it's 80" in span. and designed for R/C.

I do have drawings I started to assist with that model.

I could reduce the plans and move forward with my drawings.

10 modelers interested?

Charles
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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2012, 06:34:08 PM »
The original Songbird was an old Cessna Bamboo Bomber, a beloved "Vibrator". Definitely a cool subject, and it looks like you've already started working up plans!

It was a pretty thing, although I only saw the program in B&W. Photo below is a scale model, don't know for sure how accurate it is.

You know, the world could use another TV series like Sky King.

L.

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2012, 07:30:25 PM »
I'll bet I have well over 100 photos of the Bobcat. I also have a set of plans for an R/C model that spans about 60", possibly a tad smaller? I'd have to check. The plans are far from scale. Poor to say the least, but a start. Something to just get the mind working.

The JPEG photo of my drawings are placed over a side view of a Bobcat, (not my drawing.) My drawing is the front view and all the gear drawings you see in different places on that plan. I needed retracts at that scale and obviously, none were offered.

Robart was actually going to help me with that gear project, actually why I drew the stuff, but I couldn't drum up real interest.

When I get a chance, I'll scale that drawing down to whatever? I start with a realistic prop size, and cowlings that are available.

Mark said 25's. I can start with that.

I'll scale the F7F also.

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2012, 08:06:47 PM »
Wayne,,
EWWWW ,, really? sigh,,

 Yep, really. y1 Kinda homely without a doubt, but nicely done it would still make for a cool model.

 No one probably thought a PBY would be a good stunt model either, but... S?P
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2012, 08:21:56 PM »
A Martin B-10 "Bolo" would be really cool. It would also present very nicely in the pre-war blue/yellow scheme with all the other period markings.

 I've never seen one done either.

it DOES have a nice wing planeform.....but thats aboiut it!
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2012, 10:46:12 PM »
Yep, really. y1 Kinda homely without a doubt, but nicely done it would still make for a cool model.

 No one probably thought a PBY would be a good stunt model either, but... S?P

I wasnt gonna say that,,
 n~
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2012, 11:20:50 AM »
Windy flew three different twins at the NATS, correct?  The B-25 (I saw it at Brodaks, very impressive), the A-26, and the F7F. 

I know the B-25 was "supposed" to have two special made Ro-Jett  *.36s* to get under the .72 cu. in. ruling.

All had Windy's usual finish.

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2012, 03:45:35 PM »
I love the P-38, It's just that with the high AR of the wings on the full scale, There are too many compromises required to make a stunter out of it. It becomes, IMNHO, a cartoon scale design.

I'm one of those who wouldn't think of using IC engines bigger than .25s. I actually prefer a pair of .15s, which will haul a 600+ sq. inch design with authority. Going bigger, it becomes a problem hanging on and finessing the model when the wind comes up.

I really like the TigerCat, The TA 154, and the Mitsubishi KI 83.

Hi Brother John,

Generally I agree with your thoughts on these matters, but with the trend toward bigger engines in all top level planes (it seems), using a pair of .15-.25 size engines on something like the F5F-1 goes against the trend of the day.  Trimming is what takes away the enormous pull as you well know.  If it were not so, David could never handle his little 630 sq.in. model with the PA .75 in the nose, or people flying a Shark .35 with a ST G.51....... ???

I would not feel comfortable with a pair of .25s in a 700 plus sq.in. model the size of the F5F-1

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2012, 03:47:09 PM »
Look down the page a little bit and there is a good discussion on converting an OV 10 Bronco to stunt........

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2012, 04:02:47 PM »
Bill, I think it boils down to more than that, two .25 engines will carry a prop disk area far greater than that of a PA 75,, and it excites more airflow over the flying surfaces as well. I stand by my opinion,, two .25 engines will be PLENTY for a 700 inch airplane that is built within reason weight wise,,
but then that is MY opinion,,
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2012, 04:16:33 PM »
Bill, I think it boils down to more than that, two .25 engines will carry a prop disk area far greater than that of a PA 75,, and it excites more airflow over the flying surfaces as well. I stand by my opinion,, two .25 engines will be PLENTY for a 700 inch airplane that is built within reason weight wise,,
but then that is MY opinion,,

I respect that, Mark.  But the F5F-1 will get probably two DS .40s.  The original had twin Fox .35 and the DS is the same basic size and weight.  Like putting a .75 in a plane that might normally have a .46.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2012, 04:21:08 PM »
hey it aint my airplane LOL,, its your sorry butt that will get dragged around the circle,,  LL~ LL~
seriously Bill, I dont think the DS 40 ( from what I have heard) is leaps and bounds more poop than the Fox,, so its probably comparable,, now two aerotiger 36s,, I would want to be there for that,,


** and yes I KNOW you can trim the line tension out,, and I know about speed regulation,, I am just poking some fun at Bill cause hes in a good mood today**
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2012, 05:38:41 PM »
Hi Brother John,

Generally I agree with your thoughts on these matters, but with the trend toward bigger engines in all top level planes (it seems), using a pair of .15-.25 size engines on something like the F5F-1 goes against the trend of the day.  Trimming is what takes away the enormous pull as you well know.  If it were not so, David could never handle his little 630 sq.in. model with the PA .75 in the nose, or people flying a Shark .35 with a ST G.51....... ???

I would not feel comfortable with a pair of .25s in a 700 plus sq.in. model the size of the F5F-1

BIG Bear
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Hey Brother Bill.

Being a manly man myself, I used to think the same thing. After all, PJ uses a .61 in a Nobler , and it works pretty good I've been told, but we sorta enter another world when it comes to multi engined stunters.

I believe that what is working so well with larger engines in modern stunters is the effects we get from the increased prop disk area. There are several examples we can look at to help make the case. 

We can figure the prop disk area for a normal prop as used on the average .40 engine, say an 11 inch prop. It figures out to slightly under 95 sq inches. It'll haul a decent 600 sq inch stunter without breathing too hard. For the average .60 size engine, we will figure a 13 inch prop, and wind up with just shy of 137 sq. inches of prop disk area.

If you think of the disk area as drag racing tires, the big, (wider) tires get better traction, or power to the track. Similarly, bigger disk area gives more drive to the plane.

Now, let's consider a pair of .15s, running 9 inch props. We've got about 63.6 sq. inches of disk area for each prop, a pair of them  has slightly more than 127 sq. inches of disk area. This is very close to the .60, running a 13 inch prop, listed above. A pair of .25s running 10 inch props, is even more impressive, with the pair winding up with 157 sq. inches of disk area. A single prop would have to be longer than 14 inches to equal that.

Now, that pair of .40's winds up with a combined disk area of 190 sq. inches. so the question begs to be answered. Why isn't that even better? Well, it is, until the wind comes up. That's the root of the problem of mucho power on a stunter, but its even more noticeable with a multi engined stunter.

You can trim out the excess line tension, until the wind comes up because, wind up occurs, and you are hanging on for dear life. Gone is your ability to use the positive things about multi engined designs. You have great difficulty finessing the plane through the maneuvers in the wind. All thoughts are towards surviving the flight, not doing the maneuvers correctly.

So I hope you consider the idea that there is a real  relationship to disk area driving our planes. It's more than running larger engines, rather larger props they can turn. Multi engine designs inherently get a great ratio just because they are swinging more props and therefore have more disk area than a single engined design.

I'll always remember Paul's B-17 at over 100 OZs performing on 4 OS .15fp's It never lacked for power, as far as I could see. H^^
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2012, 05:45:31 PM »
FW-187: nearly as good as the Sea Hornet.

Denny Adamisin
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2012, 05:48:34 PM »
FW-187: nearly as good as the Sea Hornet.


OWWW and look at those spinners, scale spinners are ready made for electric flow through cooling,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2012, 07:15:29 PM »
Here's another: Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah"

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2012, 07:21:31 PM »
Mark:
How COULD I forget, here's one for you:

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2012, 07:30:40 PM »
...and one for me.  Would love to get those tail linkages working together!  (then make it a take-apart...)

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2012, 09:11:00 PM »
Mark:
How COULD I forget, here's one for you:


yeppers,, they also made a V tail version,, in case one of the V tail adamisin clan ever wanted to do a 109   H^^
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2012, 11:07:55 PM »
yeppers,, they also made a V tail version,, in case one of the V tail adamisin clan ever wanted to do a 109   H^^

I recall reading it was built but never flown.  I guess I'll have to settle for the v-tail P-39...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2012, 11:16:24 PM »
Bill, I think it boils down to more than that, two .25 engines will carry a prop disk area far greater than that of a PA 75,, and it excites more airflow over the flying surfaces as well. I stand by my opinion,, two .25 engines will be PLENTY for a 700 inch airplane that is built within reason weight wise,,
but then that is MY opinion,,

 Mark is right on here, two .25 two strokers would be plenty for 700 inches assuming the model comes out at a reasonable weight. Two .40's is going to be WAY overkill and is completely unecessary. It will mainly just force you to carry more fuel, add more weight, and add to your wing loading. y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Twin engine semi-scale stunt model. What's your choice??
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2012, 10:29:04 AM »
V-tail P-39 ?  :-\
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