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Author Topic: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit  (Read 2113 times)

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« on: August 20, 2009, 10:09:44 PM »
What would be absolute max weight for a TP powered by OSVF 46 with pipe and still fly very well ? What is the weight of this complete power train (spinner, engine, header and pipe) ?
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 10:24:11 PM »
What would be absolute max weight for a TP powered by OSVF 46 with pipe and still fly very well ?

      Well, it won the 1995 NATs at about 70-72 oz.

     Brett

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 10:37:44 PM »
plane weighs 49 oz. without power train. Not sure how much to power  weighs, as I only have the engine now . no prop, spinner, header, or pipe.
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 01:32:20 AM »
plane weighs 49 oz. without power train. Not sure how much to power  weighs, as I only have the engine now . no prop, spinner, header, or pipe.

     49 with paint and all the accessories aside from the powerplant? Figure the engine, tank, pipe, etc, is 22 oz or so. 71-72 all-up, presuming it balances that way. Not ideal but should be quite flyable.

    Brett

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 10:47:52 AM »
I seem to remember Ted saying that his last one was no dainty little thing. Not sure if it was that heavy, though. The TP has a very fat wing with a lot of carrying capacity.
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 Randy Powell

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 10:21:23 PM »
I seem to remember Ted saying that his last one was no dainty little thing. Not sure if it was that heavy, though.

    And really, how would I know what it weighed?

     Brett

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 10:42:58 PM »
Hmmm, I don't think I said you did. I just remember Ted telling me that is was, ah, portly.
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 12:28:47 PM »
Hmmmm,

Brett, I don't know for sure, but I suspect you were standing in Ted's garage observing the scale while Ted balanced the airplane on it?

Jim Pollock

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 12:42:03 PM »
Disregarding everything else,

I think that if you can get a Trivial Pursuit perfectly straight and in at 62-65 ounces it will fly as well as any other airplane ever designed! Just remember, it HAS to have an airfoiled stab, or  VD~!

Jim Pollock  H^^

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 11:02:54 AM »
OH, heck.  Everybody seems to know the T.P.s that came from Flying Cloud Isle were never "dainty" things.

The original, which is the only one I have left was originally 68 oz and flew pretty darn well with a VF .40.  Came in second at its first nats in (I think) 1992 or so.  It has since been flown with VF .46s, P.A. .61s and most recently a RoJett .61.  None flew the airplane any better than the .40 but all were less stressed doing it.  We've learned a bunch since the early '90s so I expect we could make the.40 happier with it now.  The airplane is a good testament to the fact that it isn't necessarily cubic inches that make a stunt ship go.  It's the ability to make the amount of power that is necessary to fly the airplane properly.  Bigger C.I.s simplify getting that power.

The second T.P. was built for the 1994 WCs in Shanghai and a screwed up dope finish that had to be quickly covered up with Super Poxy led to another portly version, somewhere between 66 and 68 oz as I recall.  It came in fifth in China (highest team member placing but just behind defending WC Paul Walker ... the Chinese ended up 1,2,3 IIRC). This ship also won the Walker Cup in 1995.  Both events were powered by a VF .46.  Sometime later, embarrassed by all the portly comments that airplane was refinished from the wood out in the ever popular purple colors commonly referred to as "pond scum".  This process proved successful as the ship then weighed the lightest of any at 62 +/- a smidgen based on trim.  It was flown wiith the VF, numerous P.A. 61s and a few flights with Brett Buck's original RoJett ... the last flight of which resulted in serious rekitting of the airplane and assorted bumps and bruises to Brett's engine (it was totalled and had to be rebuilt by Richard).  The purple pond scum version won the 2000 nats with a P.A.

The last version was finished for the 2004 W.C.s in Muncie.  It is the version kitted by RSM and had a lot of "character enhancement" in the form of fancy cowlings including a removable scoop over the pipe tunnel.  It looked really cool until the wing folded in high winds between the end of the W.C.s and the Nats the following week.  It also had the stab raised 1/2" from the original drawings to help alleviate some of the design's sensitivity to pitch trim (earlier versions could be induced to hunt in certain states of trim ... the purple pond scum had the flat stab modified to a sharp leading edge which largely solved the problem of the Shanghai airplane (it has been "fixed" by attaching a piece of 1/32" wire to the leading edge of the stab to "force" a consistent stagnation point on the original "rounded" leading edge).  This last Pursuit was by far the best combination in terms of tracking and stability and the raised stab was the single most important change between the original PAMPA drawings and the last version in the RSM kit.

The original, by the way, had a fully airfoiled stab and elevator and did not suffer from the problems of the second version.  This second version led to a lot of the experimentation that ended up detailed in Dave Fitz' "DeTails" article.

Oh, forgot the subject matter,  the last T.P was around 66 oz.

That's the Porky Pig story of the T.P.

Ted

Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 02:02:08 PM »
as to the question oh how heavy is too heavy?

the airplane i built two years ago was a disguised T.P.
but it was all T.P. numbers and was built from a RSM kit.
I got really caried away with paint and not enough hollowing of the tail feathers
and it ended up weighing 83 ounces after adding 3 ouces of nose weight.
it actually didn't fly all that bad. it would wind up pretty bad on windy days and pulled pretty hard.
since the new rules would have required flying it with .021 lines, this last spring i took it back down to bare wood and cut everything that i felt wasn't neccessary off and recovered it and put a light finish on it .
I ended up with 1/4 ounce of lead in the tail (i guess i took too much off the back) and it now weighs 67 ounces.
I would not have thought i could take a full puond off of the airplane but thats what the scale said(it was the same electronic scale before and after).
anyway the airplane flies quite a bit better now and was worth the effort but it didn't fly that bad even at 83 ounces.
which is a testament to the lifting capability of the wing design.
So to summerize, it didnt fly too horibly when it was porky but it flies much better full figured
but it still aint dainty.

Dave jr.

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 09:46:05 AM »
Hey Dave are you volunteering to help me trim some fat off this thing?
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 12:00:01 PM »
Hi Gordon
It sounds like yours is going to be considerably less than 83 ounces.
I would put it together and fly it .
the only way to remove alot of weight is to take it back down to wood and recover it.
i would fly it first since it's allmost done anyway. I'm sure there are others flying out there in the 70's that fly fine. mine was in the eighties and it didn't fly that bad.
if you decide to redo it call me and i will tell you how i removed all that weight from mine.I kept a log of weight at the start and kept weighing it as i removed stuff to figure out where i was at.
Dave jr.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »
Gordon, If it's the TP I think it is, it flew real well with an OS-46VF, Don't stress - Go Fly! 8)
Pete Cunha
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2009, 12:20:45 PM »
Not knowing what the area of the Trivial Pursuit is,  I would like to pose a more generic question. 
What is the range of wing loadings (oz/sq.ft.) that would have the potential to be a competitive pattern ship ?   
I have a 60oz Magnum that sometimes I think is too light.  Good on calm days but gets bounced around in turbulence.
Allan Perret
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Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 06:34:38 PM »
I believe the T.P. is about 660 squares
Dave jr.

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2009, 02:19:26 PM »
I have two TP based stunters and sold another to another flyer, all were in the 61 to 63 oz range and flew/fly great.  The one is 8 years old and has been contested five years while the second still in my stable has been contested three years, all with success.  I am not a good wind flyer, but they don't get bounced around all that bad even when I'm really puckered out there in the center.  Power is a PA65.
Will
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2009, 05:48:05 PM »
O.K. I was a little off on my previous estimate of the max weight for a TP
I guess 62-72 will work quite well.

Jim Pollock   H^^

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 02:35:32 PM »
My TP weighed 75 oz with a PA51 and pipe and later a RO Jett 65 and Pipe.  It flew well but certainly was not, to quote TED, a dainty little thing.
It did have some initial trim issues which were compounded by the weight, but as noted earlier the wing is reasonably high aspect ratio and very thick and blunt.  It obviously will carry a lot of weight and can use all the power you can muster for it.
Not a bad idea however to consider some lead bricks in your pockets when flown in a lot of wind.  Mine pulled like a freight train in the wind.
High weight + reasonable speed = lots of line tension.  No weak arms need apply!!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 10:05:26 PM »
Someday, someone besides Dave Fitz is going to report building a TP
at less than 58 ounces?

Jim Pollock   :o

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2010, 01:01:34 AM »
Someday, someone besides Dave Fitz is going to report building a TP
at less than 58 ounces?

Jim Pollock   :o

Could be.........  but does it really need to be below 58 oz. ?

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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2010, 10:53:14 AM »
Bill,

If you have ever seen his Star Gazer IV fly - you would say definitely that 58 ounces is a perfect weight!

Jim Pollock   :o

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2010, 04:59:35 PM »
Uh, Jim, ya gotta remember WHO is flying that 58 oz. plane!  He could probably make a 65 oz. ship do the same thing.
Will
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Max weight for Trivial Pursuit
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 09:44:52 PM »
Will,

He did!  His Star Gazer II was 64 ounces and it made the Japanese team oooh and aaah at the 98 Nats while turning the third corner of the triangles.  Unfortunately, Paul had his Ukrainian Impact there and it flew just slightly better enough to win on finals day.

Jim Pollock   :o


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