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Author Topic: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.  (Read 1849 times)

Offline Hoss Cain

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Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« on: May 14, 2012, 04:18:40 PM »
 ???  Been a long time since I studied any aerodynamics. So here is one for the engineers' (injun -ears I used to call them {my older son is one} )

If I have a  "trim tab" on an aero-machine's non-powered control surface, such tab would serve as a "control tab" in that it will serve to fly the control surface in a direction opposite to the normal direction of a pilot's deflection by manual control. If some up-aileron on the right is needed, the trim tab will be deflected down to pressure the aileron up thus obtaining the desired trim. Likewise the elevator trim tab will deflect down to fly the elevator up for nose-up trim and vice versa.

In a powered control situation, not a slab, but conventional stab-elevator like our stunters, the "trim tab'' usually flies "up" to provide up and vice versa. Should power fail and the machine reverts to cable then the "Trim-Tab" now reverts to the control-tab function.
That is normal for non-slab operations of sub-sonic flying machines.

So here is my question:  My new stunter will have about 5" of fixed aileron/flap on the right wing outboard. I plan to have an adjustable trim tab. Will that tab operate in the powered control function -- such as if down,  will it try to fly the outboard wing up as the normal set-up, OR will it tend to work as a CONTROL TAB and when down and  actually fly the wing down as if the wing was an one giant aileron just slightly deflected up by a trim tab?

Remember that this is flying within sub-sonic convergent airflow using basic flight control principles.  ???
I will probably find out for certain late next week!   ~^
Horrace Cain
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 11:13:31 PM »
In a powered control situation, not a slab, but conventional stab-elevator like our stunters, the "trim tab'' usually flies "up" to provide up and vice versa. Should power fail and the machine reverts to cable then the "Trim-Tab" now reverts to the control-tab function.
That is normal for non-slab operations of sub-sonic flying machines.


It is for the 737 and 727 elevator and ailerons, as I remember.  Later Boeing airplanes don't have manual reversion.  The last couple don't even have cables to speak of.



If your wing is really, really flexible, there is a speed beyond which the tab reverses effectiveness by twisting the wing.  That's one reason the outer ailerons of the 727 get locked out at high speed. 

If you use the tab to compensate for a warp in the wing, your stunter will suck,for reasons explained here before. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 12:37:00 PM »
And if you balance a warp with it, your airplane will suck. 
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Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 01:23:54 PM »
There were a couple of posts here a while back illustrating the mechanics of having individually adjustable flaps.  These were on planes of high end pilots respected throughout the ranks of competitive fliers.  The posted photos showed access holes that would allow adjustment to suit after the model was built.

Apparently, the best of the best recognize the need to be able to use the flaps to adjust flight characteristics, such as a low or high outboard wing tip.  Certainly, adjustable flaps would be much more attractive than a trim tab and possibly not even noticeable, but they serve the same purpose.  Are those adjustable flap birds condemned to suck too?
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 02:13:13 PM »
My guess, if they are used to correct a warp, then yes,, if they are used to actually correct misalignment of the flaps resulting from building discrepencies,, then they are just "blueprinting" the airframe,,
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 03:16:41 PM »
My guess, if they are used to correct a warp, then yes...

That's my guess, too.  Folks generally make the wings as straight as possible, then tweak the flaps to make up for any little anomalies in the airfoil.  I think that a flap tweak would keep the lift characteristics of the airfoil closer to the same across the wing than a trim tab would. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 03:17:39 PM »
And if you balance a warp with it, your airplane will suck. 

But perhaps it will suck less than without the trim tab?
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Offline Hoss Cain

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 03:18:10 PM »
It is for the 737 and 727 elevator and ailerons, as I remember.  Later Boeing airplanes don't have manual reversion.  The last couple don't even have cables to speak of.

I only flew 737 100 and 200. They were almost same. Not the issue.
I was wondering about a tab in a fixed position, just would it act in the trim tab function or control tab function. After thinking about it, I knew the answer did not matter. In a CL stunter the pilot is flying negative "G" as much as positive "G" therefore a set tab would be detrimental to the flight pattern.

Quote
If your wing is really, really flexible, ...
 
It is NOT!

Quote
  That's one reason the outer ailerons of the 727 get locked out at high speed. 

Close Howard but no cigar!  :'(   The outer 727 ailerons came into full play as landing flap  selections were made. That was in normal operations 30 and 40 degree positions. Engine out position was 15 and certain control problems were position 15 or 25, but that was irregular operations.
At Flaps 5, the outer ailerons had 80% movement. At flaps 2, the outer ailerons were closed. In all cases the outboard tabs served as balance tabs, to reduce control loads.
It's been a very long time since I last set the parking brake on a 727, however about 70% of my almost 20,000 hours was in the most fantastic airplane ever built, truly THE LAST OF THE SPADS!  #^

Quote
If you use the tab to compensate for a warp in the wing, your stunter will suck,for reasons explained here before. 

Yep, I forgot that the negative G would really upset the apple cart.

One one funny about trim tabs: The old USAF T-33 was the plane I did my last 6 mo. in training. I never learned this then. When I went back as an instructor it came into play.
 The T-33, originally an extended nose of the F-80, was very nose heavy. When they took the guns out, it was set up with nose weights to compensate. It was a tad overdone, and the trim tabs on the elevator were very small, but very effective through most of the flight envelope.
On landing the relatively small stabilizer did not have enough surface with full up trim (tab rolled down) to hold up the nose for a smooth greaser unless you were 10 knots or so fast., for the weight.
To increase the effectiveness of the elevator we learned that by rolling in full down-trim, tab goes full up, it was much easier to get a grease job, and impress the student!!! HA! It took both hands on the stick as that elevator became FULLY LOADED Big Time, but it worked.

To Dick: It's been almost 40 years since I built and flew stunters. A Ringmaster and Still Stuka maybe 20 flights total in all these years but no real stuff. Looking forward to it.

This new one soon to get into a finishing stage (to me finish means it's finished - I hate sandpaper and it use  ;D ) has adjustable flaps. The pusrod off the bellcrank connects to a horn soldered to a torsion bar, in an aluminum tube, going out about 8" each side, bent straight down out of the wing, with simple connectors/pusrods to the flap horns on the bottom of each flap. Just like an aileron set up for RC. Totally able to set each flap as desired.

Well I gotta' get to work on it.

BTW Rush, my flying will "suck" and my airplane may well do same. However I am doing what I WANT to do, and not rushing behind how, what, and why, some great person that is really good at what he/she does, and I just play copy-cat or hang on to what is being done by others.
Not my style.
Horrace Cain
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New Caney, TX  (NE Houston area)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 03:25:11 PM »
So here is my question:  My new stunter will have about 5" of fixed aileron/flap on the right wing outboard. I plan to have an adjustable trim tab. Will that tab operate in the powered control function -- such as if down,  will it try to fly the outboard wing up as the normal set-up, OR will it tend to work as a CONTROL TAB and when down and  actually fly the wing down as if the wing was an one giant aileron just slightly deflected up by a trim tab?

The reason that a trim tab on an unpowered movable surface tends to act "in reverse" is because it changes the point at which the surface is balanced, i.e. where it goes when you let go of the stick.  That's also why you can effect trim control either with trim tabs or with bungee cords -- because you're just moving the neutral point of the stick.

The reason that a trim tab on a powered surface acts "forward" is because the powered surface just echoes the position of the stick or pedals, so the aerodynamic neutral doesn't matter and the trim tab ends up just being an extension of the surface

Since your wing is rigid, your trim tab will act like a little aileron, deflecting the airflow -- but not the wing.  So it'll act "forward", like a tab on a powered surface.  Howard will add that it will act like a little barn door aileron, adding drag and nonlinear effects and all sorts of other badness.  I've never had tweaked wings on a CL plane, and I'm not a good flyer anyway, so I couldn't say anything about trim tabs from first-hand experience.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
One of the issues I believe with trim tabs is that they are somewhat speed dependent,, and besides that, they are only masking a warped wing,, other than that, there is no purpose for them since meaningful trim adjustments to level the wings would be tip weight in most cases, or to tweak the flaps as a whole ( which in my opinion is more about actually blueprinting the flaps position than correcting for a warp that should not be there anyway)
but then there are those whom are far more versed in trim than I so I shall defer final say to them,,
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 08:14:30 PM »
Close Howard but no cigar!  :'(   The outer 727 ailerons came into full play as landing flap  selections were made. That was in normal operations 30 and 40 degree positions. Engine out position was 15 and certain control problems were position 15 or 25, but that was irregular operations.
At Flaps 5, the outer ailerons had 80% movement. At flaps 2, the outer ailerons were closed. In all cases the outboard tabs served as balance tabs, to reduce control loads..

That's how the high-speed lockout was implemented, which I thought was a clever way of doing it reliably, and is the part you'd have known about. 

One of those airplanes (727 or 737, I forget which--it's been a long time for me, too) had a balance tab on one surface to enable a common actuator to be used for the elevator and aileron.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Trim tab vice control tab aerodynamics.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 07:35:28 PM »
If you have a warp, take it out, rather than adding any trim tab.  If you can't get the warp out, make the tap as big as possible(tweak the flaps).  Small trim tabs introduce a discontinuity in the wing that is not symmetrical.  So in certain situations like hard maneuvers, it could stall and lose effectiveness, making the plane roll.
phil Cartier


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