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Author Topic: Tail for turning flying wing  (Read 23486 times)

Offline phil c

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 08:57:27 PM »
Chris, I think you interpreted the graphic you showed correctly, and the R/CPG calculator gives a reasonable notion of where the CG and Neutral Point should be.

The neutral point calculation has to be simplified when working just with the wing and stab(or canard).  It is a theoretical, or modelled, point where the plane has NO stability- i.e. no negative or positive pitching moments at all.  Of course a simplified model can't get all the aerodynamics right so it doesn't account for the fuselage/rudder, or relative positions of the surfaces which might interact under some conditions. But it would be a useful comparison with where R/CPG puts the CG and NP on a typical stunt plane.  A modern stunter with a 25% stab will have the NP some 10% further rearward than the CG.

A C/L plane becomes unflyable long before the CG gets near the NP.  The last time I did the calculation for a combat plane I think the useable CG was at about 15% of chord and the NP about 28%.
phil Cartier

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2014, 10:28:16 PM »
A year or so ago, on paper, I made up a simple mythical "Hershey-Bar" winged and tailed conventional stunter with modern numbers to compare where that calculator chose the best c.g. position, using their suggested static margins. These, as c.g.'s in some texts on full-sized aircraft, were quite a bit behind our rearmost (25% MAC) ones. It does appear that we need ours further forward than those in R/C, FF, and full-sized planes. Our CL SM's are greater than their suggested range. What I said about canards is readily agreed upon in the literature, and it appears in practice that CL canards have c.g.'s ahead of where their builders expected to place them.

Offline phil c

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2014, 07:51:34 PM »
Interesting stuff but still want to know how far away from the TE does the stabilator need to be 1/4", 1/2"?

Second, does the combo layout with the wide center section and narrow outer wing layout smooth the turn?

Best,          DennisT

Since even I didn't really answer you Dennnis, try this.  Airfoils are typically measured by their chord.  So placing the stabilator at least one chord length behind the wing should be enough that any pressure effects from it(which will be pretty small since it's lightly loaded) won't interfere with the wing.  Minimal "reverse airfoil" effects that happen to a Fierce Arrow.  To keep the control loads down and improve power off handling I'd go with a stabilator with a 20% or so higher aspect ratio than the wing and no more than 2 in. wide.  You can go wider if it has some overhand ahead of the pivot, but don't go over 10% or so of the area.

Phil C
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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2014, 03:41:12 PM »
Tail moment and tail area are not independent items. Generally speaking, for a given amount of pitch or yaw stability, there is a linear relationship between static stability (how strongly the plane wants to return to its trimmed position) and either tail area or tail moment. That means that if you double the tail are or double the tail moment, you get double the static stability.

For dynamic stability (the ability to damp out oscillations), the relationship for tail area is linear (as above), but there is a squared relationship for tail moment arm. In other words, if you double the tail moment arm you get FOUR times the dynamic stability.

You can trade these off against each other; i.e: if you increase the tail area you can reduce the tail moment and vice versa.

So we should make all our models with enormous tail moments and tiny tail surfaces, right? Well, not quite. As you make the tail longer, the weight of the tail surfaces decrease, but the weight of the tail boom increases. the same is true for whetted area of the tail surfaces vs. the tailboom. Of particular importance to models, as the tail surfaces get smaller, so do their Reynolds numbers and/or span, hurting both their drag and their effectiveness. BTW, this is one of the lesser-recognized advantages of V-tails. By concentrating the total area into two surfaces instead of three, the span and/or chord of those surfaces is improved.

Longer tails also move mass further from the C/G, which hurts control and stability. This may also mean making the nose longer in order to minimize weight required to balance the model. Since surface area ahead of the C/G is de-stabilizing, you end up paying double in this regard for the longer tail.

As far as numbers go, there are quite a few methods, most of them complicated. The simplest on is probably the method of "volume coefficients".

Imagine that you had many, many years of experience designing models of a certain type. Because of that experience you could estimate with a fair degree of accuracy what size tail assembly a new model would require, right? Now, what if there was a way to attach numbers to all the major factors affecting stability, and a formula to combine those numbers into an overall "effectiveness" result. You could quickly calculate the "effectiveness" numbers for existing successful designs, and use those to determine the appropriate size tail for your new designs. In effect, the formula would allow you to utilize the results of the experience of all designers in the accumulated history of that type of aircraft.

The method of volume coefficients is a way to do exactly that. We take the measure of the dominant parameters influencing pitch or yaw stability through a formula, the result of which is a measure of that model's relative tail proportions. Since the numbers just happen to have cubic dimensions the way the formula works out, we call them "volume" coefficients.

For the horizontal tail (pitch stability), the pertinent parameters are the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) of the wing, the wing area, the horizontal tail area, and the tail moment arm as measured from the aerodynamic center (AC) of the wing to the AC of the tail, parallel to the fuselage. For our purposes the MAC is the chord of the surface is where the area of the panel outboard of the MAC equals the area inboard of that chord. You can assume that the aerodynamic center (AC) is located on the MAC, 25% of the chord back from the leading edge. Since more moment arm and more tail area makes the model more stable, we multiply those together. Since more wing area and more wing chord make the model less stable, we divide by those. The resulting formula for horizontal tail volume coefficient (Vht) is:

           (horizontal tail area x hor. tail moment arm)
     Vht = ---------------------------------------------
                       (wing area x wing MAC)


For vertical tail volume coefficient (Vvt) the formula is similar, except we use semispan of the wing (i.e.: half the wingspan) instead of MAC. The formula is:

           (vertical tail area x vert. tail moment arm)
     Vvt =  ------------------------------------------
                   (wing area x wing semispan)



Find some models with good stability and handling similar to the one you're working on, calculate their volume coefficients, then use those as a guideline for designing your model. V-tails are a more complicated than this, but volume coefficients are a starting point.

You have to use these numbers with some care, since there can be some other factors involved. For example, poly 2-ch vs. ailerons, the use of flaps vs. no flaps, relatively heavy wingtips vs. light wingtips, large model vs. small model, multi engine vs. single engine vs. no engine, can all effect the final results. The effects of local airflow during certain types of maneuvers can also complicate the picture. Be careful when comparing models that are not very similar in their design and intended use to the one you're designing.

As far as tail moment arm, the ratio of tail moment to tail area used in the baseline models you compared yours to are a good starting point. Ultimately the length of the tail is a structural engineering question. If you can design a long tail while still keeping mass and whetted area of the tailboom low, a long tail moment can be very effective. The Monarch series is one very successful example of this.  

Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech
EDIT:for credit



Here is the eyeball engineering way. Half span of wing is stab length and volume is determined by model weight. Just what I do. But I am no Picky-sist. Of course sometimes I don't use a jig and draw rib templates with a French curve and a dozen other off the wall things.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 11:27:35 PM by Robert Storick »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2014, 05:37:03 PM »

It appears that you use "moment" and "moment arm" interchangeably.  Both have conventional definitions, which differ.  What do you mean by "moment"?

You say that dynamic stability is a function of tail moment arm squared, then just disregard that and say,

Now, what if there was a way to attach numbers to all the major factors affecting stability, and a formula to combine those numbers into an overall "effectiveness" result. You could quickly calculate the "effectiveness" numbers for existing successful designs, and use those to determine the appropriate size tail for your new designs. In effect, the formula would allow you to utilize the results of the experience of all designers in the accumulated history of that type of aircraft.

The method of volume coefficients is a way to do exactly that.

Well, it's not.  It's what stunt people have passed down through the generations, but it's crude even statically, and isn't of much help in understanding or improving flying characteristics.  Better alternatives are copying something that works, experimenting, or looking in an actual stability and control textbook.
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2014, 01:34:05 AM »
The effects of local airflow during certain types of maneuvers can also complicate the picture.

An that is reason, why it is not well applicable for aerobatic models

Since more wing area and more wing chord make the model less stable, we divide by those. The resulting formula for horizontal tail volume coefficient (Vht) is:

           (horizontal tail area x hor. tail moment arm)
     Vht = ---------------------------------------------
                       (wing area x wing MAC)


And this is also not so on C/L models, where we have CG fron of AC of wing, so larger wing does not make it less stable :- ))

we have simply another rules for areas and it's distribution. (fuselage side area also counts if you are speaking about rudder, or vertical side area)

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2014, 01:58:05 PM »
I have found on the models that I built and tested, plus others I have flown that more chord makes them more stable, not less stable. The trick is to have just the right amount of chord to span ..ie  Aspect Ratio.  This is especially true high higher winds and turbulence

Randy

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2014, 03:57:53 PM »
Sparky didn't write the stuff in reply 54 before the last paragraph.  It comes from http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/formula.html and was used without attribution.  Based on the last paragraph, I presume that Sparky quoted the DJ stuff as an example of how he wouldn't go about designing an airplane.  Looks like we all agree with him.
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Online RC Storick

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2014, 11:18:32 PM »
No Howard I didn't write it
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2014, 09:43:55 PM »
I haven't commented recently, because this thing (the related thread too) was being approached from so many perspectives, and criticisms of "absolutes" are easy, but require too much verbage to qualify otherwise. I will say though that we do not all entirely agree on that last statement. The basics we use to create a reasonable model, even CFD and some data on low-RN flow I'm not sure anyone has, are also based on simplifying assumptions. The main one behind MAC and a.c. is certainly one with which we must deal from experience of what works and what we like (static margin, how it 'feels', etc.). The TVC may be a bit less "precise", but I do think it to be useful - just as "Ted's Rule" is useful. You may not stretch it too far, without possibly unfortunate consequences, but in comparing planes and trying to choose changes to a design (within it's basic concept), you should be able use it profitably. You just must temper it with some compensation for things like Frank Zaic's "circular airflow" concept, inertial effects, or other effects you have found to limit it's use. But even here, when any extreme becomes unreasonable, the TVC concept can help one adjust away from it. I don't write that off at all.

SK

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2014, 03:41:18 PM »
OK, we seem to have established that putting the elevator on the trailing edge of a flying wing will result is not so smooth maneuvers. Canards look funny and may still be difficult to get smooth maneuvers with. I still like the idea of a wing layout with the higher aspect outer panels and low aspect center. I think moving the elevator off the TE a small amount could help with the wing first moving as a high lift then turning. I also think if one couples a small front stabilator that works as a couple with the rear elevator would pivot the wing and help the maneuver shape. I'm thinking the front stabilator is positioned half way ish between the LE and the engine. The great thing about this hobby/sport is that we can develop by cut and try without risking much.

Best,       DennisT

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2014, 03:56:52 PM »
The great thing about this hobby/sport is that we can develop by cut and try without risking much.

And we don't have to get the boss's approval.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2014, 09:04:36 PM »
Hey Dennis, adding a small forward stabilator/elevator will help the plane turn faster.  It'll also make it less stable, so you'll have some cut and try building to do to find a workable combination.  The biggest diffculty, to me, would be finding a place in the forward fuselage to put the hardware and getting it connected properly.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2014, 02:28:39 PM »
Hey Dennis, adding a small forward stabilator/elevator will help the plane turn faster.  It'll also make it less stable, so you'll have some cut and try building to do to find a workable combination.  The biggest diffculty, to me, would be finding a place in the forward fuselage to put the hardware and getting it connected properly.

Well, Dennis Adamisin had a stunt model at the Nats with a small canard fairly close to the propeller.  He got an award for technical innovation.  I think the award was sponsored by Jack Sheeks.  It should show up in the Stunt News archives somewhere.

Keith

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2015, 02:19:54 PM »
Hmmmmm, how about a "whale tail" (Reinhart Stunt Wing) layout, but for the elevator, use the double-slotted arrangement that Wesley Dick designed for his flaps???   VD~



Hi There Guy’s,
I just found this post and thought I would comment on it.  I’ve built and flown Fierce Arrow’s and the Fierce Arrow 400’s with some, flying better than others (that’s for sure), But, I still liked the way they looked, different and way cool.   

A number of years ago I wanted to build a flying wing with better performance than the old Fierce Arrow.  I spent a number of hours on the phone talking (and emails) with Bill talking about the FA and FA 400 about which one he liked the best and why it was designed that way it was.  He said there was an article he had written telling to move the elevator hinge line aft and install an elevator counter balance to the leading edge of the elevator (same as the FA 400).  Bill’s reasoning for this was it equalized the pressure difference between the upper and lower airfoil and to promote a better turn rate.

I think Bill was right, but I also think there is more to this as well.  My thinking is that the counter balance adds more effective area to the elevator in a turn.   Also, the counter balance increases drag in a hard turn because it protrudes below or above the trailing edges in turns, depending on the direction of the turn.  I don’t have any hard data or wind tunnel testing to prove or disprove any of this, just my feelings.     

Biased on previous experience with the Fierce Arrows models I built, there were a number of things I wanted to improve on.  The first issue was yawing in hard turns.  This was the biggest problem and needed to be addressed mainly because it made the whole pattern look sloppy and way out of trim.

There was a slow turn response at the beginning of the square corners and very soft corners on the tops of the hourglass. Take off’s, landings were good and rounds and level flight were always easy and smooth.

I added an adjustable lead-out guide and adjustable tip weight box to the Fierce Arrow and I went to work from there.  I always felt it was just a matter of getting the C.G., tip weight, and the lead-out position correct and all these little problems would go away.  After a few gallons of fuel, that helped cured a lot of the problems but it still had a few funny wiggles in different parts of the pattern.  Then I moved the lead-outs in front of the leading edge about ½” to 1” and things started looking up and performance was much better. Still, my thinking was that excessive wing sweep was holding the performance back.  It was always way to stable and there was no quick cure for that except designing and building a new model the Delta Force.


Later,
Mikey

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2015, 04:08:08 PM »
A friend got me to test fly the Dick Sarpolus design that appeared in Flying Models some years ago.  The engine is mounted between booms on the front of a stubby fuselage.  Not a super stunter, but more of a souped up Ringmaster.  We discovered a few things.  As originally built the controls were hooked up as a canard, both flaps moved the same direction to get more lift.  VERY strange.  Under power it was very stable until you moved the controls.  Then it tended to mush and suddenly go into a loop.  As soon as the motor quite it handled and landed predictably and smoothly.  Obviously the prop wash on the flaps over powered the canard, up to a point.

Next, locked the flaps in place.  It flew fine and was stable and controllable.  Much like a Ringmaster, but a little better.

Finally, hooked up the flaps to move opposite the wing.  It flew OK, but didn't turn as tight.

Regards the picture- the combined flap/elevator is about 4-5 times as wide as it needs to be.  If you glue the forward portion solidly in place it will be something like Reinhardt's Stuntwing, or a Wakkerman F2D.  it'll fly better, but the elevator is still about twice as wide as needed.  Might have a CG problem with all the paraphernalia behind the balance point.

A question I would have had was what happened to airflow into the prop disc when the canard surface was displaced and did some degree of up/down P factor result?

Offline phil c

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2015, 04:24:15 PM »
 Based on the results with the Sarpolus design p-factor didn't seem to be a factor(pun intended).  The problems appeared to be all due to the front flap(elevator) and the flaps on the wing fighting each other.  With the wing flaps fixed it flew much like any other plane.  It couldn't turn sharp enough(wing loading) for p-factor or precession to rear its head and make a yaw.  This is not a highly tuned stunter.  I expect with a lower wing loading and more power and probably some other tweaks to the design you might see the more subtle trim issues.
phil Cartier

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Tail for turning flying wing
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2015, 04:23:49 PM »
Mikey,
I also like the idea of the flying wing platform, your information is very interesting. I wonder if the small nose canard similar to what  Dennis Adamisin used working in tandem with the balanced elevator would help the corner issue. I also think you need lots and lots of power on a light weight, small diameter, low pitch/high rpm, wood prop set up. This would address the yaw issue along with your more forward leadout position. I'm wondering if a thinner, wider blade prop could give reasonably strong pull up top. I would also propose flying it faster say 58 - 60 rather then normal 53 mph stunt and put it out on longer lines.

The other question is how much of a gap between the trailing edge of the "wing" and full flying type elevator would you need to get positive pitch control without the first high lift effect then the turn - 1/2"?

Just some thoughts.

Best,       DennisT
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 06:40:56 AM by Dennis Toth »


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