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Author Topic: Stunt design's  (Read 1063 times)

Online Larry Wong

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Stunt design's
« on: January 07, 2022, 08:04:34 PM »
Question: what makes a ultimate stunt design ?   

is it all aesthetics ?
shape of wing?
shape of fuselage 
sweep leading edge
  straight or curved { like spitfires}
full flaps or half flaps

OR the skill of the pilot?    ???
Larry

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2022, 09:24:29 PM »
Question: what makes a ultimate stunt design ?   

is it all aesthetics ?
shape of wing?
shape of fuselage 
sweep leading edge
  straight or curved { like spitfires}
full flaps or half flaps

OR the skill of the pilot?    ???
Yes
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2022, 11:03:36 PM »
  A stunt model is a true sum of it's parts, from the spinner and prop on down the lines to the handle, and those parts can vary from person to person.  You have to fly to figure out what you like and suits you, and then build and refine from there. There will be base lines, for most of the parameters, but you need to mold it and shape it to what makes you happy, and then comes practice! If you were to find the perfect stunt model, it won't fly itself!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2022, 11:15:33 PM »
First define ultimate. The answer to that resides within the specification defined within the person invoking the criteria. An answer could be the design which can perform the prefect pattern. Then the trouble is within the definition of what is the perfect pattern. As defined by whom? As an aerospace engineer I could spend hours discussing every nitty gritty detail. End of the day many successful designs are done by individuals with zero engineering background based entirely upon criteria only they understand. So, the answer to this question, what makes the ultimate...... is without a specific answer and cannot ever have one. As tomorrow, the ultimate airplane which is created only maintains that status for as long as the solution it was created for remains the result of the desire. Tomorrows ultimate will be different from today.

When a sport is so subjective as aerobatics, all of the disciplines are, the solution is too variable to make a carte blanche statement. If the purpose of the question is an effort to understand the design process and what to do then, do as most do. Take several designs you particularly like and take the elements from them that you like and mold the composite in to the the machine you imagine. As long as the machine you make looks mostly like the others the performance will be acceptable enough to work. And you will learn. Then make adjustments. And pursue the un found "ultimate".

There are avenues unventured or unconquered which can be the road of your choice. Bill Netziband took the statistics of many aircraft and compiled their attributes into a very good piece of work. If you follow that work and resulting "template" your design will be successful on a level within a range which you can learn and progress. 
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“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2022, 09:46:17 AM »
I deleted my first response and had to think about this one.
I think there are two separate categories.
Aesthetics: There is a major wow factor when you see a striking plane on the ground.
Scoreboard: Your plane may fly like a dog, or be remarkable, and either one can be near the top or bottom of the scoreboard.

Aesthetics: We all know that "wow" which bystanders or other competitors say when the plane comes out of the truck. That "wow" is pretty remarkable (I only get that wow in front of school children-but it's still awesome to hear). If you can't get to the top of the scoreboard, but your plane gets a "wow" from others, you've built the ultimate stunt plane. I think your Zuriel is pretty close to that. That plane is striking. This is another reason why modelers will forever be building their own planes. The reward of "wow" is irresistible if you can achieve it.

Scoreboard: Maybe nobody wows at your plane, but when people see you at the top of the scoreboard there is a level a esteem other competitors give you. We suddenly want to hear what you say and find out what kind of prop you're using. I think your Max Bee may be your best flying plane just from watching on the sidelines. but even if it flies like Igor's Max Bee, nobody is overly interested until it hits the top of the scoreboard.

I think Jim's Systrema II is the most striking stunt plane flying.
I think Orestes planes which won the worlds and nationals are completely mundane.
So, if the ultimate, ultimate is toping the scoreboard and making everyone say "wow."

Then, going back through my memory, I think Ted Fancher had a few planes that met both criteria. Al Rabe totally met the criteria. Bob Hunt's Genesis would fit the bill too. Probably Paul's P-51 with the Saito. David's Stargazer, the gold and purple one. Bill Werwage's P-47. Probably a few other's I don't know about and definitely dozens of others at local contests that get wows and get wins.

I think if I somehow beat David Fitzgerald someday, that would be remarkable. But I wouldn't call my plane the Ultimate until people said "wow" when it comes out of the truck. I think if I still in the middle of advanced but start getting "wows" I'm halfway to the ultimate. But, judging by my painting skills, I need to shoot for the top of the scoreboard.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2022, 03:44:51 PM »
If you're in the clique.

   There are no "cliques" and if you build and fly better than someone else, you will get rewarded. The idea that there are these "secret clubs"  or insiders that somehow dictate the results, or favor certain people, is often used as an *excuse* for not getting the desired results. There are numerous very famous examples in both directions.

     Even if your premise was right - it doesn't matter. The only way to overcome it is to *build better* and *fly better* than the supposed clique members to make it possible to overcome the supposed bias. I note that you probably cannot do this without help, based on the fact that no one else has managed to do it without help, either. But you cannot make excuses, you cannot get it in your head that you are someone getting the shaft, because once you do, you have defeated yourself.

      Brett

     

   
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 04:35:11 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2022, 04:58:08 PM »
If you're in the clique.

I know there are preferences within the hobby. Something that excites one person is a differential flap setup, fancy electronics, carbon fiber and molded everything else. Doesn't matter how it looks or flies, they think you're a step beyond everyone else.

Others see anything with electric power and think you've emasculated yourself.

Just like some like Michael Angelo, and others like Van Gogh, and others like whatever's stuck to the fridge. There's room for all sorts, and if there weren't, This would be a lot more boring if everyone flew the same type of setup. Yuck.

But top of the scoreboard is the best flying plane on that day -I've only seen one contest where I watched the flights and disagreed with the judges, but that's the point of judges. Satisfying a human eye and what lies behind it. The winning pilot did a better job of satisfying the judges' eyes. No clique involved.

There's a "wow" people say only when they can't stop themselves. Preferences. No clique involved.

However, you're a 100% right that there are cliques and friends groups. There's the guys who sit out by the flight line, there's the guys who sit by the tent, there's the guys that sit by the cars. I'm sure not every group everywhere is as inviting as the next. But I've never met an unwelcoming group. If I've met you, you must have been welcoming, cause I've never met a rude stunt pilot, which doesn't make sense, so I'm sure there are some out there. You need some pepper in the soup, even an onion or two.

I'll stick by it, there's two categories for the ultimate airplane and sometimes one fulfills both.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2022, 05:41:47 PM »


The entire freakin stunt forum is a clique when it gets right down to it.

Definition of clique
: a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons
especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes

Control line aeromodelling is definitely a narrow exclusive group of persons intent on going in circles....
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2022, 06:17:57 PM »

The entire freakin stunt forum is a clique when it gets right down to it.

Definition of clique
: a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons
especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes

Control line aeromodelling is definitely a narrow exclusive group of persons intent on going in circles....

   I commented on it because the idea that there are some external forces that are out to get you, or that you have to be an "insider" to succeed, is far and away *the most insidious way to defeat yourself in stunt*.   It is a very easy trap to fall in to, and once you do, you will never get anywhere.

     This is the single most important bit of advice I can give anyone as far as compeent - you must not fall into this trap. You cannot control what other people do, you can only control what you do.

    If you fly better, you will get better scores, period. If you don't like the scores you are getting, go learn to build/finish/trim/fly better.

   Brett

p.s. I got this from Ted Fancher, when I was whining about the results of the 1989 Golden State contest.  He preaches this, and it is the most important insight there can be in stunt.

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2022, 07:31:26 PM »
   I commented on it because the idea that there are some external forces that are out to get you, or that you have to be an "insider" to succeed, is far and away *the most insidious way to defeat yourself in stunt*.   It is a very easy trap to fall in to, and once you do, you will never get anywhere.

     This is the single most important bit of advice I can give anyone as far as compeent - you must not fall into this trap. You cannot control what other people do, you can only control what you do.

    If you fly better, you will get better scores, period. If you don't like the scores you are getting, go learn to build/finish/trim/fly better.

   Brett

p.s. I got this from Ted Fancher, when I was whining about the results of the 1989 Golden State contest.  He preaches this, and it is the most important insight there can be in stunt.

This is great advice for life in general too!
Matt Colan

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 02:27:16 PM »
I deleted my first response and had to think about this one.
I think there are two separate categories.
Aesthetics: There is a major wow factor when you see a striking plane on the ground.
Scoreboard: Your plane may fly like a dog, or be remarkable, and either one can be near the top or bottom of the scoreboard.

Aesthetics: We all know that "wow" which bystanders or other competitors say when the plane comes out of the truck. That "wow" is pretty remarkable (I only get that wow in front of school children-but it's still awesome to hear). If you can't get to the top of the scoreboard, but your plane gets a "wow" from others, you've built the ultimate stunt plane. I think your Zuriel is pretty close to that. That plane is striking. This is another reason why modelers will forever be building their own planes. The reward of "wow" is irresistible if you can achieve it.

Scoreboard: Maybe nobody wows at your plane, but when people see you at the top of the scoreboard there is a level a esteem other competitors give you. We suddenly want to hear what you say and find out what kind of prop you're using. I think your Max Bee may be your best flying plane just from watching on the sidelines. but even if it flies like Igor's Max Bee, nobody is overly interested until it hits the top of the scoreboard.

I think Jim's Systrema II is the most striking stunt plane flying.
I think Orestes planes which won the worlds and nationals are completely mundane.
So, if the ultimate, ultimate is toping the scoreboard and making everyone say "wow."

Then, going back through my memory, I think Ted Fancher had a few planes that met both criteria. Al Rabe totally met the criteria. Bob Hunt's Genesis would fit the bill too. Probably Paul's P-51 with the Saito. David's Stargazer, the gold and purple one. Bill Werwage's P-47. Probably a few other's I don't know about and definitely dozens of others at local contests that get wows and get wins.

I think if I somehow beat David Fitzgerald someday, that would be remarkable. But I wouldn't call my plane the Ultimate until people said "wow" when it comes out of the truck. I think if I still in the middle of advanced but start getting "wows" I'm halfway to the ultimate. But, judging by my painting skills, I need to shoot for the top of the scoreboard.


I may not have said “wow” for the Icarus or Ghidorah or wrong-way-flaps canard, but I certainly let loose with a “that’s really cool.”
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 03:19:23 PM »
I may not have said “wow” for the Icarus or Ghidorah or wrong-way-flaps canard, but I certainly let loose with a “that’s really cool.”

      As long as we are discussing kaiju, what about my personal favorite? Probably naturally unstable due to a far-forward Cp, but active control is provided by the superior mind of our favorite flying incendiary turtle.

   Brett

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 03:38:09 PM »
      As long as we are discussing kaiju, what about my personal favorite? Probably naturally unstable due to a far-forward Cp, but active control is provided by the superior mind of our favorite flying incendiary turtle.

   Brett

Definitely iconic for certain
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Stunt design's
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2022, 12:44:48 PM »
I may not have said “wow” for the Icarus or Ghidorah or wrong-way-flaps canard, but I certainly let loose with a “that’s really cool.”

The only "wows" I receive are flying at school yards or soccer fields. I pulled my profile foam Hummer out and some kids sounded like they were about to wet themselves.

But I do appreciate "that's really cool." Much better than "get this guy to a shrink."


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