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Author Topic: MAC vs Average Chord  (Read 5716 times)

Offline Trostle

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MAC vs Average Chord
« on: July 15, 2015, 12:25:27 PM »
Some recent posts (mine included) have given some attention to the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC).  This is an important parameter used in full scale aerodynamics.  And it is useful, to some extent, in the design of our CLPA models.

However, and I am speaking in general terms, the taper ratio used on the wing planform on "most" or "typical" CLPA designs is "fairly" small compared to that found on full scale aircraft (most light planes excluded).  So the difference between the MAC and the average chord of our CLPA models is "fairly" small.  That means the search for a desirable starting point to locate the CG of the model, assuming say a 22% to 25% location of the CG on the MAC is very close to the 22% to 25% location of the CG on the average chord.  (This difference in those two CG calculations is even less when there is little or no "wing sweep"*).  After the model is flown and the CG is adjusted for best performance, that CG may change (probably a very slight change), but will likely still be generally very close to that initial CG calculation.

For me, it is more satisfying to determine the initial CG position based on the MAC, even though it probably is not more than 1/4" different than what the average chord calculation will give for my .40 to .60 powered models.  That means that I can generally position the range for the adjustable leadouts a bit more precisely based on the calculations of the leadout position relative to the CG, expected weight of the model, its speed, and expected length/diameter of the lines.

There is an equation in one of the recent threads that gives the location of the MAC relative to the root chord.  That works and is useful, even if there is only a slight amount of wing sweep.

(*Note:  Wing sweep is normally measured at the quarter chord line of the wing to the perpendicular to the airplane centerline.)

Notice to certain detractors:  I am not trying to start any controversy here.  I am only expressing my observations and experience in the design of our CLPA models.  It might be useful to those who do not want to bother with MAC calculations.

Keith

Offline phil c

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2015, 09:10:14 AM »
For folks trying to learn how aerodynamics and engineering work on models, Wild Bill Netzeband's articles in American Modeler and Model airplane News in the late 1960's is probably the best place to start.  He gives a good explanation of how basic stuff applies to our models.  I've used his methods many times to design different planes that essentially flew right off the bat.  They are particularly helpful doing something a bit out of the box.

Allowing for differences in parts, such as no Veco bellcranks are being made, the procedure still works.  He made an error in handling wing flaps- they ARE part of the wing area ash admitte.

http://www.ooobopshibam.webspace.virginmedia.com/netze/wildbill.htm\A
phil Cartier

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 10:38:32 PM »
In full scale aircraft your dealing with multiple airfoil shapes from root to tip, add sweep, taper and planform and the difference between avg. chord and MAC is different. Not so much on a CL model where the airfoil is constant with a simple planform.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 12:34:21 AM »
In full scale aircraft your dealing with multiple airfoil shapes from root to tip, add sweep, taper and planform and the difference between avg. chord and MAC is different. Not so much on a CL model where the airfoil is constant with a simple planform.

?????????

Maybe I do not understand what you are trying to say.

MAC has nothing whatsoever to do with "multiple airfoil shapes".  MAC has nothing whatsoever to do with "sweep".

A CL model does not necessarily have an "airfoil that is constant".

The average chord of a constant chord wing is the same as its MAC.  Add taper, and there will be a difference between the average chord and the MAC.  The greater the taper, regardless of the airfoil or airfoils and/or sweep, the greater the difference between the MAC and the average chord.

Keith

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 07:27:57 PM »
Here's a mathless, graphical way to calculate MAC.  I found this at boatdesign.net, but it is a standard method:
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 07:34:30 PM »
If you want to be rigorous, use both wings, take the textbook definition, and multiply each station along the span inside the integral by r^2/R^2, where r is the distance of that place on the span from the center of the circle and R is the distance of the center of the wing from the center of the circle.  This is necessary to find the spanwise postion of the MAC.
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: MAC vs Average Chord
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 11:32:18 PM »
I think that the MAC in the comment above was being confused with lift distribution (dependent on aero and geom. twist, etc.). The MAC and its position are purely geometrical, as Howard's diagram indicates, but we have to keep in mind that in locating a.c.'s and thus cg's through MAC analysis, we are making the great simplification of assuming that the lift is the same at each infinitessimal point of the wing. This makes the computation of the aerodynamic center of the wing the same as finding the center of mass of a plate of constant thickness and density and the same size and shape as the wing, a significant over-simplification. There are aspects of the 3-D wing and its flow that alter this, but some apparently balance others. So we just have to get used to the variances and get on with the design job, being aware of trends. %-thickness of wings also marginally affects the approximately quarter-chord position of the a.c. The best reason to use MAC's, IMO, is to be able to predict the a.c. movement with varied sweep and taper. It seems to work pretty well, but I'd guess that the MAC (Edit 3: Oops, I meant a.c. or old center of lift) of each panel is further in toward the wing root than computed.

I don't think use of the diagram is always safe, because small inaccuracies in line positioning on paper can lead to large errors in where the lines cross. Also the a.c. of an elliptical wing of any sweep or aspect ratio is easier to compute than that of a straight tapered wing, but very difficult to approximate with diagrams. It's actually inside that of a straight-tapered wing of the same aspect ratio. This MAC's spanwise position is also listed wrong on several internet sites.

Edit: I did not address Howard's last computation, but finding the spanwise lift center is a good way of positioning the wing laterally in the fuselage, as long as the thrust line then passes through the center of mass.

Edit 2: ...or, better, of positioning the fuselage along the span, of course.

FWIW.

SK
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 01:01:44 PM by Serge_Krauss »


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