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Author Topic: Lift  (Read 2313 times)

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Lift
« on: April 01, 2025, 07:54:01 AM »
I thought this might be a good video for those of us that understand the "what" of all of this but don't have the scientific or math background to "go into the weeds" and totally understand the why.  It also helps me understand why we have such a difficult time in defining the "perfect" airfoil and where to put the trip strips!  If any of you that *can* and do get into the weeds find this to be BS, please point it out.

I am deleting the link after being informed by two respected members of the forum that know far more than I about these things.  Bye link, see you around.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 01, 2025, 05:39:20 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Lift
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2025, 09:55:24 AM »
but don't have the scientific or math background

Sometimes also that is not enough  ;D

Hour of life spend on that, it is much better than that "standard" explanation, but there are lot of inaccuracies, wrong conclusions, or even misconceptions

I think I not need to play with such idea to mix london dispersion force to aerodynamics which is easily explanable and enumerable with standard physics, but if you have theory and it fails in some detail, your theory has problem, I will post one picture comming from well working simulator and you can compare with his idea of compressed air, that explains all.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Lift
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2025, 02:41:57 PM »
That is what I was hoping to hear.  It all made sense and conformed to what I have experienced until the compression part.
However, I do not discount a theory simply because a simulator produces something different.  If the person(s) writing the code for the simulator did not subscribe to a particular theory, it is doubtful that the simulator would produce results confirming it.

Ken
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Lift
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2025, 04:50:00 PM »
I didn't watch the whole thing.  I saw the first five or so minutes, which gave ten seconds worth of information over and over without a video that could have proven his point.  Then I skipped around and saw some utter balderdash. 

The guy said that air is compressed at the front of the wing and flows toward low pressure at the back.  This is hogwash.  Igor's picture shows that the pressure is low at the front of the upper surface and higher at the back.  (Another issue is that air is not compressed anywhere near the wing if it's below .7 Mach).  This isn't because the guy who wrote the code "did not subscribe to a particular theory".  It's because he understood the physics.  The real physics is understood; people use it to calculate stuff, write CFD programs such as Javafoil, and design airplanes that work. 

What causes lift is something that people are curious about and is really hard to explain in less than a semester.   Yet "simplified" erroneous explanations are everywhere. But who cares?  What causes lift isn't that relevant to most stuff that pilots, modelers, and aeronautical engineers do. 

I found a couple of videos.  The first one is an aero professor telling his students how to explain to kids how wings work:   .  The second is Doug McLean pointing out flaws in yet more detail:  .
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Lift
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2025, 05:36:08 PM »
I didn't watch the whole thing.  I saw the first five or so minutes, which gave ten seconds worth of information over and over without a video that could have proven his point.  Then I skipped around and saw some utter balderdash. 
Thank you.  If you and Igor agree then balderdash it is, or maybe it was hogwash?  Not sure.  I will delete the link less some other unsuspecting seeker of truth stumbles onto it.

I did a lot of computer modeling when I had more hair but it was in the field of economics and scheduling.  If you feed a bunch of data into a model written by a Keynesian then feed the same data into a Friedman model or game theory model you would get totally different results.  That is what prompted me to comment that excluding one from the model also excludes it from the results.  I know that science and economics are quite different, but I can say, coming from Friedman side, that Keynesian is balderdash AND hogwash.   VD~
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Lift
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2025, 08:42:31 PM »
I didn't watch the whole thing.  I saw the first five or so minutes, which gave ten seconds worth of information over and over without a video that could have proven his point.

    It has to be padded out to be monetized, so you can more-or-less assume that anything popping up on youtube recommendations is going to be like that. They're not all utter nonsense, but the odds aren't good. More or less the same quality standards apply to most technical subject that I am qualified to judge either way - aerodynamics is always one of the worst, math is another, hifi is yet another (although that is certainly not unique to youtube, the audio industry has run on unadulterated BS for 40+ years now).

  I did see a youtube video where a physicist said she had to give a wrong answer on the topic of lift to pass an FAA pilot license exam!

     Brett

p.s. By the way, the *worst* of all on a consistent basis is military history/analysis particularly military aviation,  usually by British guys. Painstaking research of the most trivial details, followed by toss-off comments like "but of course the American's stole it...". For example, the one where one guy insisted that the Manhattan Project was a "joint British/American project" and also that they had detailed backup plans to drop atom bombs using borrowed Lancasters but didn't do it for "ego" reasons. The primary British contribution to the Manhattan Project was some trivial information about uranium that was already well-known, and the fact that nearly every one of the few British participants at Los Alamos was actually a Soviet spy. Stalin knew the Trinity test was successful before they told Truman.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Lift
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2025, 02:39:02 AM »
Thank you.  If you and Igor agree then balderdash it is, or maybe it was hogwash?  Not sure.  I will delete the link less some other unsuspecting seeker of truth stumbles onto it.

I did a lot of computer modeling when I had more hair but it was in the field of economics and scheduling.  If you feed a bunch of data into a model written by a Keynesian then feed the same data into a Friedman model or game theory model you would get totally different results.  That is what prompted me to comment that excluding one from the model also excludes it from the results.  I know that science and economics are quite different, but I can say, coming from Friedman side, that Keynesian is balderdash AND hogwash.   VD~

There are much worse explanations than that. The basic problem is that he tries to explain it to details without really understanding it. I can imagine he wanted explain "why" and he got himself to troubles. If you say lift comes from change of mass momentumm what is coupled with force making air pressure difference and then you want to explain why deflection apears and you come to situation that you see that it the pressure difference causing it, you are running in circles  ;D ... and if you want break that circle, you must google something like london dispersion force which has ability to change boiling temperature of gases, but certainly not deflection of the air stream  >:D 

You do not know anything until you use your theory for figuring up numbers fitting reality. So you can try that simulator (google Martin Hepperle) and you can model some NACA arifoil and compare with real available measured data. Some years ago I tested my airfoil on that simulator. Then I did my own calculation of my own model to measure tighters possible corner with maximally deflected controll surfaces and I got data which I was able to compare with measured radius. I posted it in old stuka forum. If that worked (aproximately of course, difference was smaller that 20%) then also that simulator and also my calculation worked properly. So if his explanation shows thing completaly opposite than results of that simulator, even withour real numbers, it will be probably wrong.

BTW that "compression" stuff in the video is based on "zone lift" theory, which does not match measured data of pressure distribution at all.
That "compression front of LE" really appears, but only in case of no or very low AoA, when airfoil does not make lift too much, while completaly disapear at high AoA when airfoil makes lot of lift, what is in contradiction with that theory. (measured)
It is also in contradiction with airfoil moment which is opposite than it should be if the zone lift theory would be proper.

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: Lift
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2025, 07:31:43 AM »
Have to laugh.. When I was taking flying lessons.. the instructor informed us what made airplanes fly was....MONEY. LL~
Ty Marcucci


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