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Author Topic: How much of a designer are YOU!?  (Read 19541 times)

Offline ash

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How much of a designer are YOU!?
« on: February 16, 2006, 01:59:04 AM »
The whole design process is as big a part of this hobby for me as flying and building are. At the other end of the scale are flyers who are perfectly happy with slotting together ARFs one after the other. And yet a step up are those who calculate every possible parameter before the pencil even touches the paper!

So, on a scale of 1-10...

(1 being the ARF king, 5 being a plan builder who occasionally personalises the design and 10 being Mr. Calculator)

How much of a designer are YOU!?

I'm about an 8. I can't even remember the last time I built from a plan without seriously modifying it! But I keep it fairly eyeball-empirical, calculations and spreadsheets are work, not fun.
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline dirty dan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 01:42:28 PM »
Hmmm...

I am using calculators and spreadsheets in scaling a proven design down a bit and in tweaking the Skyray 35.

But I would never rate myself as more than a "5" on your scale. Too much out-and-out copying going on in my shop!

Dan
Dan Rutherford

Offline Bill Little

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 08:54:10 PM »
I'm pretty much like Dan in the "design" department.  I mainly build "other people's" planes.  Funny, but the plane I have used for 7 years is my "own design", just like those designs of the '60s that were Noblers with different shapes.  Mine is the "Geo Juno".  A Staurn drawn as a Juno and piped.  Lot of originality there!   NOT !!  ;D
I would rate a 5.
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 08:55:16 AM »
I will claim to be about an 8.  I've had one design construction article published, and am making very slow progress on another I hope to publish.  I designed a couple of Fox 35 stunt airplanes back in the early 80's by starting with Twister plans, going to I-beam. longer moments, larger tail, and full fuselage.   ::)  One or two profiles and a fairly large number of 1/2A sport/stunt airplanes.

Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 11:38:07 AM »
Although I virtually never build from a kit, and usually draw my own plans,
and have a few ideas, I don't consider what I'm doing as much DESIGN.
Not really.

It is mostly copying the ideas (and numbers) from other people.

There definitely ARE some real designers still around, clearly Brett seems
to be one, as well as Igor, Paul, Wild Bill, Chuck, Serge, all folks who actually <are able
to> do technical analysis. (These guys are using equations with "worms"
in them - calculus, integrals, quadratics..) ;->

And there are very creative, inventive individuals around, like Rabe, Rush,
Hunt, Palmer, Taib, Fancher, Urtnowski, Zambelli, Yatsenko and a dozen others.
These guys seem to combine highly technical analysis with practical ideas ,
in varying degrees.

Finally, there are the MODELERS, who mentor and inspire. My personal hero
here was Bill Melton. Although Bill was a PhD and held a couple of patents for
plant genetics, what he taught me was how to use epoxolite - and SANDPAPER.

I continue to try to suck the "design" marrow out of all these people, in particular
areas I'm interested in at any given time.

So, standing on these shoulders, I'll claim about 5 or 6.  Maybe a 4..

L.

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 12:51:56 PM »
I'm with Larry. A 4 maybe a 5 (at best). I have some original ideas occasionally, but overall not much of a numbers guy. Just rework what I know and very occasionally go out on a limb (which Brett is generally sawing off behind me   ;D )
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 04:27:50 PM »
I dunno if it makes me all that bright, but I build and fly only those I have designed myself.  It's at least half the fun of the hobby!  As a result, most of my flying is "test-flying" new designs or mods to older ones...just putting a tried-and-true old airplane through maneuvers frankly gets a little boring for me, as does building yet another of a proven design.  I used to fly combat (there's a rush) but greatly fear old reflexes aren't up to it any more.  And I'm trying to get serious (-er) about pattern flying, so that should take up more of my flight time without getting too boring.  I guess that puts me at about 8 or 9 on your scale.

--Ray
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Offline ash

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 09:58:36 PM »
Absolutely, Ray! Designing is a huge part of the fun in this hobby for me. I tell you, its a real kick to take your own design through quantum leaps in performance during the trimming stages and exceed your wildest expectations. I did that today and it feels great.

I guess the non-design guys are getting their kicks out of flying stuff that goes first time without all the brain teasing that goes on in my head while developing a new ship.
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 06:06:17 AM »
Sounds like we're two of a kind, even if we are halfway around the world from each other!  You're right, it is a kick to see your own creation flying the way you intended, or if not, then developing the design until it does...I tend more toward "creative" designs, always looking for something new to try, in construction/materials as well as the planform itself.  Probably have more failures than most as a result, but I don't care...I learn something from the worst of them, and it's always interesting. 

Here's one of my most spectacular flops, at least to date...but I'm not done with it yet.

--Ray
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Offline the original Steve Smith

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 08:23:54 PM »
Well, I kit bashed a Twister kit a little bit.  Does that at least make me a 2?

 
Thanks,
the original Steve Smith
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 05:21:17 PM »
Depends what we understand by design...

I enjoy bashing many parts of plans- or kit-based models, and laying out fresh models. Almost all fly as well as I can, some better.

If design includes detail design of the innards, I enjoy designing tanks, bellcranks, control horns, linkage geometry (Hi, Larry C!), gear mounting schemes, just about anything I can make to my own specs.

It's all part of the hobby for me, so I guess I'd be an obsessive, but unnumbered designer??
 
\BEST\LOU

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 07:16:32 PM »
Interesting question with a lot of ways to approach the answer for a given individual.

My "career" has spanned a short original time period with kits which quickly became kit bashing which, after my first nats turned into analyzing successful designs and ultimately to a long period of "designing" new ships every year or two for most of my competitive career.

What I've learned over all those years (about 50 now, I guess) is that any remotely accurate reiteration of the fundamental George Aldrich Nobler design can be made to fly competitively to the level that most humans are able to attempt to fly the pattern.

Having come to grips with that realilty I find myself having come more or less ful circle and am looking into good kits of other people's successful designs for both nostalgic reasons and to see what they might have come up with that I didn't over those years.

Ted

Offline dirty dan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2006, 12:31:47 PM »
Hmmm...

I am using calculators and spreadsheets in scaling a proven design down a bit and in tweaking the Skyray 35.

But I would never rate myself as more than a "5" on your scale. Too much out-and-out copying going on in my shop!

Dan


I hereby retract the above comment. The sort of hubris it takes to say something like that is normally something I avoid.

Instead, as a designer I'll go for the bottom-feeder "0" rating. And I have had "my designs" published!

Besides, design work is not where my interests lie, not where I enjoy myself to the fullest.

At the most, I want to understand how things work, but only to avoid building something really stupid.

My emphasis is on taking a proven design, a known quantity, and building it to a pretty decent level. If that means my Skyray 20s and Skyray 3.5s are a cut above, that's fine. If it means my best-effort Impact does not achieve parity with the worst of this design to come from PW's shop, that's not fine, but that is the way it is.

And I can try to make the next one better.

What is for certain is that I am not going to design my way to a "better" model until I can replicate PW's Impact to a reasonable standard. Learning something all the while.

Even in "designing" the next new model I am merely scaling an exisiting design down. And when I realize that I am just smart enough to know that I don't know all that is required for a successful effort I grab some tools out of Ted's bag.

In this case contained in his article on the Imitation.

Dan


 

Dan Rutherford

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2006, 02:18:07 PM »
Make of this what you will.  I don't particularly like the looks of the Ringmaster.  I think the wing looks like  a part of one airplane and the rounded tail looks like part of another.  So I think the design is not harmonious. 

I have an Own Design flying wing stunt airplane which pleases me very much.  The aesthetics are just wonderful!  :D  The wing looks very much like a Ringmaster wing and the elevator and rudders look very much like a Ringmaster tail .   :o

I have redrawn it in various ways where the wing and tail parts go together harmoniously and the results are not pleasing to my eye.  ???  Go figure!

Offline phil c

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2006, 07:52:42 AM »
I generally start with a few ideas and a blank sheet of paper(CAD screen these days).  What would that be, 9 or 10?

Dan is a bit modest. Yeah, a modified SkyRay probably rates 0 or 1, but he's had some innovative planes published.
phil Cartier

Offline dirty dan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2006, 12:57:40 PM »
I generally start with a few ideas and a blank sheet of paper(CAD screen these days).  What would that be, 9 or 10?

Dan is a bit modest. Yeah, a modified SkyRay probably rates 0 or 1, but he's had some innovative planes published.

While I appreciate the comment, back when I was submitting a few designs for publication I was also flying very actively with one P.T. Granderson.

I shamelessly ripped many of his ideas.

While I have not run the list, I honestly believe the only innovation I ever came up with on my own was the inboard-mounted Pylon clunker on the Cheater Slow, published in Model Aviation, said magazine at the time begging for articles of all sorts.

For the time, the CS really did fly well enough that it just had to be illegal, hence the name. And soon enough a key element of this design was in fact made illegal...

I am good at coming up with off-the-wall names for "original" designs which are actually based upon the efforts of others, however!

And I say all of this not due to any modesty, false or otherwise. As Brett has pointed out many, many times the difference between a good model and a great model is in all the seemingly minor details.

So when I build something new, whether it be another Skyray 3.5 or a new Impact you can rest assured that I have made every effort to get the all details just right in a design which came from someone else's thoughts and ideas.

Dan


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Offline ptg

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2006, 10:09:17 PM »
Hmmm, this one made me think a little. 

Since 1965 just about every airplane I've flown in competition except notable Classic designs have been original designs.  That's a lot of original designs.  Guess I've designed and build at least 40 stunt planes and a whole bunch of combat planes.  I whole heartedly agree designing is a HUGE part of this sport for me!
PT Granderson

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2006, 07:40:42 AM »
My first post here, looks like another great service for the CL flyer. This is an interesting question. It seems the more I participate in this hobby/sport the less autonomy I have in the design department. Several years ago I flew my own designs. But, over the years I have gravitated toward proven designs such as the Saturn and Gieseke Nobler. Planes such as these fly so good, I can't see myself improving on them either. I don't make any changes while building them. I made no mods to my Saturn when I put in an OS 52 FS and it is the best flying plane I've ever had.

I do still enjoy designing and building. My Hughes XF-11 has been slated for a future issue of Flying Models (possibly July or Aug.). But, when it comes to competition I have been sticking to proven, winning designs.

Steve

Offline frank carlisle

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2006, 05:37:54 AM »
I'll have to go with zip,zilch or zero for my rating as a designer.

A few years ago when I returned to stunt I bought a Legacy kit. Built it verbatum. It came out seriously nose heavy.
I built a second Legacy after I crashed number one due to a faulty solder joint. #2 was just as nose heavy as #1. To the tune of 2 1/2 ounces of tail weight I crashed #2 in John Paris' back yard. An area I now refer to as the Paris Triangle.
I am now wrapping up Legacy #3. On this one I moved the whole engine crutch back one inch into the wing area. I used 1/4 inch root ribs and a good solid fit between the wing and fuselage. If this wing/engine set up does not fail I'll probably build it over and over again till I die. Right now it looks like it will balance out without additional ballast in it's butt. I have a Super Tigre .51 that Big Art fixed up for me.
My new Legacy doesn't look like a Legacy at all anymore but I did not design it.
Frank Carlisle

Offline rob biddle

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2006, 05:55:17 AM »
G'day all, I started in c/l at about age 12 and flying with some high school mates every weekend. We had very limited resources as the local hobby shop only catered for the r/c crowd and kept no control line supplies at all. So we had to learn how to make our own tanks, bellcranks, horns, hinges etc. ( mainly .15 size models)
We had no access to plans of any sort (didn't even know where to look for them). Forget about kits, we couldn't afford them so we generally designed our own models with hugely varying degrees of success (lol). Some flew ok, most didn't,  we didnt' care as long as we got to smell castor fumes!
Up until about 4-5 years ago I only built O/D's until I got the bug to start building the models of my dads generation. (50's-60's, when every kid in Australia built controlliners) So started building the models I dreamt about when I should have been listening to my school teachers. (T-bird, Argus, Ramrod etc.)
Nowadays I tend to have 1 classic and 1 o/d f2b model on the go at the same time, a few years ago I would have rated my self as a 7 on your scale but now that I am building a few published and am a bit more modest in my middle age I would probably say 3 as my o/d's are just blatent rip-offs of other peoples proven ideas. (and I have spent years perfecting which of those ideas don't work together)
Thanks for the food for thought... Rob Biddle.
Robert Biddle

Offline Ron King

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 12:44:22 PM »
This is a very interesting question.

I will confess that many of my ideas come from the education I received from people like Jim Silhavy, Larry Miller, Bill Netzband, Bob Gieseke, and Bob Hunt - plus reading the design theories of people like Bob Gialdini, Ted Fancher, Les McDonald, and Paul Walker. I have taken all their ideas, blended them with my own sense of proper aesthetics, and have created my own stunters.

So how much of a designer does that make me? Or how much of a thief am I?   #^

One of the best lessons I got from a friend is to steal from the best.  <=

I love my own ships and really get a kick out of watching them fly.

Ron
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2006, 09:03:12 AM »
Ahhhhh........Ron,

I am the "BEST THIEF" in the Universe when it comes to stealing from others in the CLPA design arena!   y1   My usual victims are Werwage and Hunt!!  **)

 x:

Bill <><
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Offline Ron Merrill

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2006, 03:17:45 PM »
as a designer i am a zero, as a thief i am a ten. All my planes that have been any good were proven designs by Ted,PW,Rabe,Moon,and Windy. My favorite is the Moon Walker by Steve Moon. I like to fly thats all the excitement i can stand. I let the people who know design have there fun #^ and i just smile when i put in a good flight and not crash '' Ron.

Offline Ron King

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2006, 02:57:22 PM »
Ahhhhh........Ron,

I am the "BEST THIEF" in the Universe when it comes to stealing from others in the CLPA design arena!   y1   My usual victims are Werwage and Hunt!!  **)

 x:

Bill <><

Thus proving Ron's Second Law: "Steal from the best."  <=

As Hunt told me, "Most of us are simply changing the dress on the same maniquin."  So I want to start with a Championship caliber maniquin.

Cheers,

Ron
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2006, 06:51:18 AM »
I'm always willing to try something new.  Meanwhile, Kyle wants to kit the Mustunt series.  Do you think there would be any interest?

Al

Offline Bill Little

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2006, 08:19:48 PM »
I'm always willing to try something new.  Meanwhile, Kyle wants to kit the Mustunt series.  Do you think there would be any interest?

Al

Hi Al,

I would hope that there would be tremendous interest in the Mustunt series!  That is a great progression of designs that can teach a pilot a whole lot about what Stunt planes should be.  Great designs that can take someone up to the Expert level, and the laser work of Kyle should equal a match made in heaven!

Bill <><

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Offline Leo Mehl

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 12:03:23 PM »
I started designing my own planes  in the 60's. I did this to get away frome the heavy wooded kits they used to make in that era. My first design was called the Rebel mostly because I fly backwords. that was desighned in 1967. after that plane turned to dust I got this grate Idea about how to build a model that was light. I would build it so the back end was all sticks and covered with silk span . My reasoning was that it is easier to put a finish on silkspan than wood. then I quit modeling for 28 years. when I got back into modeling I built. 5 more models of this design. the basics of design is making a plane that will do exactly what you tell it to. I changed the name to Grinder and the last one really worked good for me.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2007, 06:53:27 PM »
DARNED interesting thread looks like it was been dormant for awhile but I just signed up so what the heck...

Let me start with a little political correctness: Stealing has such negative karma,  perhaps a little wordsmithing is in order: if you are dealing with artforms (like CLPA birds) then a much nicer term is "interpreting" a new design.  If you are a calculator kind of guy then its not stealing its RE-ENGINEERING!

I like Ted's post about trying other's designs now just to see what he missed.  I regret that I did not, uhh, re-engineer a little more based on what I saw my contemporaries doing.

Al Rabe once offered me a flight on his Sea Fury.  I was so intimidated by the bird that I declined - yup I still regret that too.  That airplane was at least a 9+ on the Designer's scale suggested here.  I did fly Windy's sweeper at the 1980 NAT's.  That was not so much original as just outside all the normal box.  And my shoulder still remembers that flight every time the weather changes.

I have designed airplanes where I could claim a 10.  However, my SUCCESSFUL designs were closer to a 5...!
Denny Adamisin
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As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Leester

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2007, 07:30:14 PM »
Hi Dennis: Speaking of your designs, not to long ago I bought a Custum Models kit of your Hawker Typhoon. The Intro on the instructions say it was your Nationals winning airplane. I am a retread so I am not familiar with it's history, but this sounds like a very successful design.
Leester
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2007, 08:13:58 PM »
Leester:
Successful - yes but I do not think it was a big STRECH design for the time.

I think designs have been become more conservative over the past several years, so the Typhoon actually stands farther outside the norm now than it did back then - if that makes any sense!

Thanks for remembering it.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Leester

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 02:16:34 PM »
Dennis: Yep makes sense. Did you design your Typhoon as a foamy or was that done for kit purposes ? I wonder what it would be like with a built up wing ?  Thanks
Leester
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2007, 05:37:27 PM »
Leester:
My Typhoons had built-up fully sheeted wings with a D-tube spar.  In one of the other forums I was named a "Stunt Grunt" of the day, and Schultzie posted a copy of the plan there.

The kit you are referring to was done as foamie profile.  My Dad helped out the kit maker but I did not have any involvement in development of the kit.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Leester

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2007, 07:10:18 PM »
Dennis: Thanks for clearing that up, it's still a cool plane (the Kit). Your Stunt Grunt is cool too, nice pics of the plane and that young guy with it lol.
Leester
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 08:58:28 AM »
When I consider the likes of Paul Del Gato, Walter Muciano, Carl Goldberg, Larry Scarinzi, Nick Ziroli, Dick Sarpolus, and others, all 10s in my book, I'll settle for an "8".  Intersting thread!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline don Burke

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2007, 09:29:30 AM »
What is a designer?  I think it's someone who has an idea and uses it (i.e. original idea, or kit-basher), as opposed to  someone building a kit or to plans with no changes.

Anyone who has done anything other than building a kit with no changes, he's/she's a designer and deserves a 10!
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2007, 09:28:36 AM »
There are various levels of "design".  Some people, such as Paul Del Gato, came up with totally new concepts from scratch.  Things that haven't been done before or since like his Jetex Bomarc.  Others do something much more like re-styling a proven concept.  A prime example would be the Chisler, which actually used the wing out of a Green Box Nobler kit and only featured a restyled fuselage.  Stunt has been a field where design has more "evolved" than been "created".  The first CL models were converted free-flights; then someone got the idea of adding a symmetrical airfoil.  Flaps came next.  From there, it is mostly a case of a little change in moments here, an area change there and LOTS of styling changes that modify the aerodynamics not at all.  There have been some segnificant structural innovations here and there such as the I-beam stunter, foam wing and lost foam wing.

The guys I admire are the ones who do a wide variety of models over the years and each one is worth copying.  I posted a list earlier in this thread.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 09:25:07 PM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 01:27:40 PM »
Interesting topic ;D.

Well that depends on your definition of what a designer really is.  Are you just talking about PA models or a model designer in general?

Having spent many years designing models of all types including FF, C/L, R/C, plastic ready-to-fly, and mass produced toy's you have to know what you are doing in all these aspects to be a competent designer.  You would be really surprised how many aspects from each type of modeling correlates to one another.

People that I look up to are people like Claude McCullough, Maxey Hester, Hal DeBolt, Eddie Southwick, and a few others, are some of the best.  There are many people that can come up with a good design, but the really hard part is to manufacture it, put it in a box, and make a profit on these designs. This is what a great designer does. 

OK lets look at this in a little different way.  PA models are designed for specific flight characteristics within the scope of this event.  The people that are at the very top of this event, have tailored these flight characteristics to get the most out of a particular design.  With that said, they could put a whoop pin on you with most anything they choose to fly.  This comes from honed skills, focused ability, and putting in the practice time learning the pattern and becoming a master of the event.  While I understand the need for the latest and greatest design or engine,  many modelers that I have seen over the years could benefit from staying with the simpler models and practicing more while learning all the aspects of the pattern. y1  To many times I have head "Man if I had that model my scores would go way up" which is some cases it may be true, but for the most part the reality is the scores won't go up until their skills start reaching the level of the model.  This is a fantastic hobby/sport and full of very good and unique people.

As to"How good a designer I am", I will leave that up to you.       


Later, H^^
Mikey

 

 

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2007, 05:02:32 PM »
Mikey,

I completely agree. On the other hand, this brings up an interesting point that is related to all you've said. What is your goal in modeling? For some, it's to be the next Paul Walker. If that's your goal, then you need to find a competent design (and most any top design will do), build a series of them to hone you're building skills and practice with a knowlegeable coach. There was a time that Paul flew 6-10 patterns a day. Every day. Rain, wind, come what may. 6-10 patterns almost every day...for years. It's one of the reasons the guy can fly a 550 point pattern in a hurricane. Given the talent and application, this program will get you there. But being Champion of the Universe isn't everyone's goal. I spent years working on a high aspect ratio design. My goal was to get what was a design that was really outside the envelop for a stunt plane to fly a competent pattern. And I had a lot of fun doing it. Others have other goals. And designs are part of it. Some like to design planes that are fun or interesting or whatever. Ron Burn's work is second to none. But I think Ron would tell you that he has no asperations of becoming National Champion. Others try different power trains or are just in it for the friends and fun of the event. It's all in how you preceive the event and what your goals are. I imagine it's the same for free flight, various RC events or whatever.

I'm not much of a designer other than perhaps in style and execution. But other than my foray into high aspect designs, most of what I do is well within accepted parameters of accepted design. But I primarily do it for the fun.   H^^
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2007, 05:19:11 PM »
I really appreciate that perspective Randy,
I might approach this question by first defining a bit tighter what a designer is,, My knee jerk reaction, first thing that comes to mind, is that to design something most generally involves the aesthetic realm of the item, whilst the engineering involves the math and number crunching. So that being said, in my perspective, taking a proven set of numbers and changing it aesthetically to a different harmonious pleasing appearance is in fact designing. My job is to design the layout of buildings, ie coordinationg the run and elevation of the piping and ducting versus actually engineering the flow rates, required fluid flows and such. So under that definition I think that makes me a designer, but most certainly not an engineer.
That being said, a clarification to help understand my perspective, Randy, when you were creating your High Aspect Ratio planes, you were designing and engineering them, but the Chizler is a redesign of the nobler, not a reengineered design.
My two cents worth,,
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2007, 09:41:27 PM »
Wow, a lot of great commentary in this thread.

I used to work in the Ford Motor Design Center, in the Aero Engineering department created in the late 1970's.  One of the first things a mere engineer learned there was that those people in the studios were DESIGNERS, not stylists.  Still they used to use engineering parameters like interior space, engine compartment layout, required luggage capacity, aerodynamic contours, etc. and blend this all into an aesthetically pleasing skin.  Then they would go to work on interior layouts, instrumentation and such.  Somewhere along the way the engineers and manufacturing people would get involved and figure out how to actually build the darned things - sometimes changing the design.  Meanwhile competitor X might bring out something new, and the design might again be altered and iterated to suit.  Usually the final design was considerably different than the original design theme.

The corallary for CLPA?  Most stunt planes are one of a kind, a few go to mass production (see Mike Pratt's commentary a couple posts ago)  Sometimes a stock airplane can receive a wildly good (or bad!) color scheme that can actually change the visual presentation of the pattern.  Sometimes aesthetic changes (any number of Nobler or other cloned designs) make a personal statement and another slant.  Sometimes someone builds something like last years model only makes the nose longer or the tail bigger or the ...whatever to try to evolve to a different level of performance.  Sometimes you try to take all that you have in mind and try to shape it into a recognizable semi-scale bird.  Pusher biplane canards have not "looked" right since about 1903, but if someone brings one out - its been done!

My first Eclipse flew well but had some durability issues, a terrible peeling paint job (8 points at the NATs!) and was inconvenient to service.  Thus "design" goals for Mark 2 were a more ROBUST (durable) airframe that would be good enough to minimize the "damage" in appearance judging and that was easy to service.  It had several hatches and adjustable features, ALL of which could be serviced with a 4-40 allen wrench.  For Mark 3 I wanted to keep all the good features of #2 and subtract weight - it ended up 7 oz lighter but with a lesser finish.

One thing for certain I never thought the way to beat someone was to duplicate what they flew and how they were flying.  It is essential to do something different and hopefully BETTER!  I also strived to IMPROVE the breed with each new bird.  In the mid 1970's I built two birds in a row evolved from my brother's Apogee-V NAT's winners.  His flew well, and so did mine.  However my two designs flew interchangably -  progress was stagnant.  Next bird out was the hi aspect ratio Orange Crate. When that proved to be too controversial I started the Eclipse series...

One observation I find a little disturbing: if you take a look at the "Classic" era designs and compare them as a group to current designs I thing you will find a LOT more variation in the older birds than current - i.e. more experimentation was going on, even among the Nobler derivatives.  Some folks recommend (RIGHTLY) that design starts with the engine and spreads to the airframe that steers it around.  However, the Classis mostly flew with Fox 35's and generated a lot of variation.  Modern designs have a plethora of engines from 25's to 90's, 2 strokes, 4-strokes and electrics - yet (IMO) the designs have gone conservative (less experimentation)!

To bring this rather windy post to a close, whether you are styling, engineering, or using "TLAR"; whether you are building an ARF with a new set of stripes added, a kit, cloning someone elses airplane, tweaking an existing design, or going back to a pusher biplane canard; key thing is to design with a goal, then fly with a purpose.

Oh yeah, HAVE SOME FUN WITH IT!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2007, 09:43:51 AM »
Dennis,

A few of us have stepped out with something different. Tried different ideas and such. I still think the Orange Crate was one of the most inspriational designs I've seen. I'm thinking about building another one. It was an awefully fun plane to fly.
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2007, 10:23:05 AM »
Here are a couple of my stranger efforts.  Both of them have trophied at 1cc contests.  The flying wing needed 2 pit stops to finish the pattern, but made it under 8 minutes!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2007, 05:29:28 PM »
Randy:
Thanks for remembering the 'Crate.  Funny, you mentioned it that way, it is one of the designs I wondered about re-trying again too.  Cannot say I really "milked" it for all it was worth.  However, never could seem to get a score with it either.  Maybe if I..... that's another post  :!

Larry:
I always thought you heard a different drummer - and that drummer was more like a hot jazz trumpet!   Is the Frite Streak based on a Flite Streak? (say that sentence three times n~)  Looks like it only has about 2 rib bays (per side) worth of elevator?
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2007, 01:22:07 PM »
Actually, it is derived from the Larry Scarinzi "Streak" published in 1957.  I fell in love with that plane and have been evoluting (forced evolution?) it ever since.  This is about #7 or so.  I am now updating the design yet again to 250sq. in. (37" wingspan) with beam mounts for the AP Wasp .061.  That will be called the Sky Streak, and I will attempt to publish it as I think I have the design pretty much optimized now.

Yes, the required elevator is quite small.  I use "Lucky Boxes" to handle the angled hinge line, and it is extremely smooth.  Balance is ahead of the wing root leading edge.

The model flies remarkably well, and even with the Black Widow for power, does all the maneuvers in the pattern correctly on 38' of .008" cable.  Eric Rule now has that particular model.  I design 'em, he cuts 'em and I build and fly 'em.

Keep an eye out in Flying Models for my Sky Sport design article.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2007, 03:27:47 PM »
Dennis,

I thought of sizing it up somewhat and using a bit more power. I even like the V tail.   #^
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2007, 04:24:43 PM »
Randy:
Sounds good, especially given your later experiences with high AR.

I want to stretch the fuselage to dimensions I used on Eclipse: take a 48" fuselage, put the engine on 1 end, the elevator back to the rudder post, then stick the wing somewhere in the middle so it balances!

Probably a "normal" fuselage mounted gear.

Would want e-power, but probably would use a LA40...

...and it probably would not be orange!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2007, 10:20:30 PM »
Go with an LA 46. They're lighter and have more power.   #^
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2007, 10:54:50 PM »
AMEN on the LA 46, after watching my ummm tight end weight P-40 motor around the circle behind that LA.46, I am a convert . anybody want to buy some stunt tuned FP 40s,, ?
ok actually kidding, I love my FPs,, but that 46 was pretty impressive!
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 03:48:30 PM »
I would probably rate myself around a 5.  Maybe later on in life I'll become more of a 6-8.

Matt Colan

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2009, 11:43:52 PM »
Well,

Probably my biggest change in design paradigm is going to be putting Archies forward canard on my next PA plane when I actually get around to building the fuselage.

I really don't think of myself as any kind of designer at all, just someone who occasionally re-interprets other peoples designs.....Hmmm, Dennis that does sound better than thief!  Thanks!

Jim Pollock   :o

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2009, 05:25:37 AM »
Jim, which way does the canard move, with the flaps or the elevator?

Matt Colan

Online Howard Rush

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2009, 05:51:40 PM »
Most airplane design I've done has been on commercial transport airplanes.  For the last ten years, I've been figuring out how to do airplane systems trade studies and teaching other folks how to do them.  I designed some combat models, some of which were good, and some of which were silly.  For stunt, I fly an Impact. 
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2009, 12:16:00 PM »
Hi Matt,

The canard trailing edge moves with the flaps so the lift is imparted to the nose of the aircraft.

Jim Pollock   H^^

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: How much of a designer are YOU!?
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2009, 03:53:38 PM »
OK, confession time. I designed my first airplane when I was 13. A free flight powered by a WenMac .049. Right there you know I had my head in the clouds or elswhere. But hey, it's all I had not mounted.

I've designed close to 15 stunters, but I haven't built any of them yet.

Matt Colan


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