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Author Topic: How do you Draw up Plans?  (Read 7724 times)

Offline mccoy40

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How do you Draw up Plans?
« on: December 21, 2017, 11:50:11 AM »
All,

This may not be the appropriate area to post this, but, how do you guys draw up plans?

I don't have any Design software but I have built numerous planes of my own design and copied a lot of plans and kit designs. So I am familiar with the construction of a complete plane from scratch. I never draw up a plan though. At best I make templates and paste these onto the wood I'm cutting with rubber cement.

I was wondering do you use a sheet of paper from Office depot and then draw everything with a pencil ? or is there some accepted method of producing a plan that I am not familiar with. I would like to publish or submit for publishing some of the planes I've built.

Any help would be appreciated   H^^

P.S.
I cannot typically post on this site at work(actually any site for that matter). But I can view the site and the forums from work. (I'm off today that's why I'm posting)
Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 01:20:33 PM »
If I want to share, I use a 2D drafting program.  I use Libre-CAD, which is open-source but slightly quirky -- there's a lot of good 2D CAD programs out there of varying degrees of free-ness.  Lots more free-as-in-beer than open source, but there's enough open source stuff.

If you're not comfortable with that, you can draw up plans on big drafting paper, or on butcher paper.

If you're doing it on paper and you want to publish, negotiate with the editor -- they may be able to line you up with someone willing to CAD-ify your paper drawings.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline mccoy40

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 01:53:50 PM »
Cool! I'll look for some free 2d drawing as well as reach out to the editors.

Thanks
Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 02:11:55 PM »
There was a time when I was pretty good running CADAM (a large IBM mainframe running it), but for drafting projects at home, I use pencil + paper.  CLEARPRINT vellum with a "fadeout" 10 X 10 grid (to the inch) makes drafting machine unnecessary.  Mechanical pencil with 0.7mm HB lead.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 06:56:56 PM »
For those not from Star Treck , and for Individual Planes , traditional drafting gear is more than adequate . A T Square & Squares .

But a navigators Rule , preferably about 18 inches . DONT drop it on your toe . But your toe is softer than the floor , so it wont hurt it .



A Parralel rule is o.k. but they slip more .



Wants to be 14 inch or more to be much use .

A Staight Edge , ( Steel Rule ) at least 3 foot long , too . Actually , Just a straight edge & a square will get you under way .

10 inch min. squares !.

Throwing some lines on the back of a piece of paper ( poster ) , filling in and straightening out , can get the ideas on paper quick .

Establish the Datums . Centerline Fuse. , Wing spar / high point , hinge lines etc . FIRST Priority . Everything else will fall in around them .

A set of ships curves ( french Curves ) are usefull . Best cut from plastic sheet from the building supplies , these days .

« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:56:37 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 07:11:47 PM »
You find theres only half a dozen or so ( curves ) that get regular use .

Long open ones ( Fuse Curve ) a few tightish ( radiuses  @ Tips ) and the AIRFOIL ones . Which are Most Usefull .

as they can do sequential stagger or shift , to maintain a curve or plain along a flying suface , and with a few datum marks
ca be used for cutting ribs. If you enjoy marking out ribs dimensionally . 1/2 mm's & 1/64 ths etc for thickness step & so on.  :P

The Traditional scale rules the WH*RE in Melbourne F***D off with gave a almost infinite choce of fractions , for wing lay out .

What'd Enzo ferrari's drawing gear be worth . or Pinnafarinas .  :o ::) theres some really dumb bi**hes about , & rissoles .

Thisis Desin At Supermarine .



They have to go into a bit more detail .

If youve measuring sticks in 12ths, 20ths , 64ths etc , plus mm , depth of rib variation per bay , and sweep , are defineable .

But measurements are mainly conveniance and standardiseation .

Two marks on the edge of a strip of paper , and folding it in 10ths or 12ths or whatever , Give Equal & even divisions .
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:38:46 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 07:53:57 PM »
The LONG ones'd be say 16 inch or so . Youd only copy & use the usefull looking ones , or derivatives . ( might tryn scan suma mine )



One ends up putting pencil mark datums on them , doing ribs and consecutive shapes .

If one curve matches LE at Root ant at Tip , @ differant sector , the two marks devided by the number of the bays , gets datum
( mark on curve ) for each rib .

Getting more tecnical than me , you could use a progressive diffrentail variation between the two datums . And Go Cross Eyed
marking it out . :P

2H & 3H are finishing / Final pencils ( Leads ) and are softer & Smudge Easier .

6H is pine line ( like wot for them rib layouts ) and wont show on a print , if light .

4 H is more usual layout pencil . ( use good one , Staedler etc )

A Fine Sharp Tip ( maybe sharpened rolled on sandpaper ) a draftsmans pencil is sharpened on a Fine Taper , NOT a short one .

A Well Sharpened 6H , Draw Two Lines ONE millimeter apart .

Split That.

Split Those .  ( parrallel Lines all )

Youve Got 1/4 mm's . BUT . . .

Two staggered overlapped lines between them now , will get you clear defined 1/10 th m.m. devisions . Which should be close enough for
general drawing .  S?P S?P LL~ LL~ LL~

Just use EQUAL Devisions ( divided by multiples ) of whatever youve got . Measuring Stick . Knotch marks . Knots on string , etc .  ;D H^^

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 10:12:21 PM »
For wings, my favorite drawing material is Christmas wrapping paper.  I like it because on the back of the paper are 1" grid lines to make it easier to cut straight lines when you're wrapping presents.  I use the lines to ensure that I get the ribs at right angles to the spars and LE and TE when I draw up my simple planes.

Mark

Offline mccoy40

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 07:44:34 AM »
Wow! Mat great stuff - I haven't seen a draft table since my college days - same for all the french curves!

I should explain myself a little more as to the purpose for the drawing. There are alot of rib sets and wing sets available out in the modeling world. I plan to use one of these to design a plane around it.

For example the banshee wing can be bought from Sig as a wing kit - those patterns would be traced onto the plan as a courtesy and then a note would be added indicating the stock no to buy from Sig. The other parts, stab, elevator, fin rudder, etc. I would draw.

The plane I'm thinking of is the Miss Los Angeles.
   
Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 05:02:54 PM »
... but for drafting projects at home, I use pencil + paper.  CLEARPRINT vellum with a "fadeout" 10 X 10 grid (to the inch) makes drafting machine unnecessary.  Mechanical pencil with 0.7mm HB lead.

I love that stuff.  But I like the 0.5mm lead.  I mostly do CAD these days because I can do moderately large revisions easier (as in -- "Hmm.  Maybe an aspect ratio of 5.5 would be better").
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline mccoy40

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2017, 08:49:16 AM »
it"s on my Christmas list     :!
Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 06:54:44 AM »
Going with computers, CAD isn't the only option. Vector graphics also allows you to get precise measurements and scale up and down without losing definition. You can also start from some CAD files, or maybe even export as a CAD file. Some PDF files out there are actually vector files that you can edit with a vector program. When I play with those, I use the free Inkscape.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.


Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2017, 02:02:34 AM »
Going with computers, CAD isn't the only option. (...) When I play with those, I use the free Inkscape.

I use CorelDraw, I like it.

Offline Alexey Gorbunov

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2018, 03:15:08 AM »
Rhinoceros 3D.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 03:21:40 AM »
Model Aviation has published pencil on vellum plan drawings without even going thru an inking step. The one I am familiar with was pretty legible even at the magazine scale. Nothing wrong with old school drawings. They have more soul, and often more style. In the past, by going thru the inking step, they were able to enforce a sort of editorial uniformity that we all came to expect from MA. In particular, I enjoyed looking at Joe DeMarco's work.

How did we get here, with everyone expecting CAD because somehow they believe it is more accurate? The mechanical engineers fought with the CAD developers for years to try to get software programmers to understand that mechanical drafting was a highly developed art, not just a bunch of lines in the right places. They continually proved that if you couldn't recognize a quality pencil drawing, then you certainly couldn't create programming to duplicate that same effort via computer. Most of the tools still do not make it easy to achieve what good drafters routinely did (as trained) more than 30 years ago. That said, the tools are way, way better than the sledgehammer code from the early 1980's. Nowadays the issue is different--all the effort is spent on correctly creating the 3-D model which allows you to pop accurate views (any projection or section) you want from the solid model. The drafting now typically gets short shrift. The hope is to supplant all drawings in a model-to-metal file transfer which is still going thru growing pains. Hence the tremendous boom in "maker hardware."  (I saw a pretty decent ME-109 fuselage in the hobby shop that was pieced together from plastic parts grown from a CAD solid model. The intent was to do enough handwork on it to create a master to make a mold.)


In terms of CAD model airplane plans, there are some out there that are getting pretty close in terms of quality and readability of linework, section views and so on. But often one or more basic drafting skills is missing. I saw a plan referenced here not long ago that was done in first angle projection. Despite the fact that the title block said it was standard projection, which in the USA means third angle. Confusing, until you just chuck normal drafting conventions and assume the views are all backwards. Another error you see all the time is the join line between two curved surfaces is incorrect. Like between the canopy surface and the fuselage top deck. It is relatively easy to generate three or four points that define the curve and draw it in. These kinds of issues are why people are still building prototypes of laser cut kits, instead of going straight to production--because the modeling and the drafting are not complete or correct. (Check out the beautifully cut modern kit of the Wagner Dakota free flight. The angled firewall required by the plans is unachievable by the parts as provided, so you have to trim and extend parts because the design work is not accurate.) But since this is just a hobby for most of us, it is pretty close and that is way better than some plans and kits from years ago. This is a bit ironic, because the skills modelers gained from working from inaccurate and incomplete plans and still routinely managed to get the plane built were invaluable to industry when they chose to take advantage of them.

Dave

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 09:26:26 AM »
For those not from Star Treck , and for Individual Planes , traditional drafting gear is more than adequate . A T Square & Squares .

But a navigators Rule , preferably about 18 inches . DONT drop it on your toe . But your toe is softer than the floor , so it wont hurt it .

When I drop a valuable object, I try to get my toe under it.



Paul Smith

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 09:44:09 AM »

If you're not comfortable with that, you can draw up plans on big drafting paper, or on butcher paper.

Go for the butcher paper.  You can see through it better than regular paper for tracing (not as good as drafting paper but light years cheaper.  An $15 at Sam's or Costco will last you a lifetime.  It is super easy to erase which makes it easy to ink and it rolls up easily - since it comes in rolls!  Been using nothing but since my mother (not knowing what new smells and noises would follow) gave me some when I was 15 and got the incurable itch to design my own.

CAD is wonderful but my first job was at a drafting table and to me it is more fun to grab a pencil, a straight edge, a couple of triangles, a cheap French Curve, some coffee and a vivid imagination and block out the world while I visualize my new creation about to make a 40 point landing after a perfect flight only to be shattered by that terrible sound "Honey will you please walk the dog?"

Ken
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Offline jfv

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
A really decent free 2D CAD program is DraftSight.  It is essentially an AutoCAD clone.  Here's the link.
https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/offerings/

Make sure you download it from the Dassualt Systems site.
Jim Vigani

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2018, 05:16:53 PM »
A sheet rock T-square from Lowe's is more useful than a standard T-square. It's an aluminum 4' T-square.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 05:39:44 AM »
My system is pretty simple, I draw the plan with a pencil and straight edge on the back of another plan, and tape pieces of paper together to draw templates for stabs and smaller parts.  Here are my last two, a .46 size I call Scorpio and a larger .60 size I named Vertigo, which I got dizzy flying and planted it on pavement.  Just kidding, I didn't get dizzy, but I did plant it real good!

Don
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 06:02:27 AM by Don Jenkins »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2018, 09:23:22 PM »
A sheet rock T-square from Lowe's is more useful than a standard T-square. It's an aluminum 4' T-square.  H^^ Steve

   Exactly, I use that, triangles, an architect's scale, and white butcher paper.

     Brett

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2018, 11:11:22 PM »
I have used butcher paper since I was about 7 years old. My uncle owned a meat shop, and gave me a roll back then when I asked for paper instead of the wienies they used to give away to customers. I expected to get maybe 6 feet or so. I got an almost full roll. Unimaginable riches!  I can't design any more planes now, because this year I got to end of that roll of pink butcher paper....

Actually, I started using vellum for serious projects quite a few years ago, but I was still using the butcher paper for sketches and templates.

My thought is you should use whatever works for you. But draw up something and build it! And if it flies really good, send it in to MA. I like reading about really good airplanes.

Dave

PS--Something that you may find helpful while drawing--and building--is a clear plastic material sometimes labeled as See-Temp. You can draw on it easily with a fine point Sharpie pen. You can trace templates and make exact left/right outlines of things like elliptical wings.

     http://seetemp.com/

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2018, 12:14:10 AM »
I have used butcher paper since I was about 7 years old. My uncle owned a meat shop, and gave me a roll back then when I asked for paper instead of the wienies they used to give away to customers. I expected to get maybe 6 feet or so. I got an almost full roll. Unimaginable riches!  I can't design any more planes now, because this year I got to end of that roll of pink butcher paper....

Actually, I started using vellum for serious projects quite a few years ago, but I was still using the butcher paper for sketches and templates.

My thought is you should use whatever works for you. But draw up something and build it! And if it flies really good, send it in to MA. I like reading about really good airplanes.

Dave

PS--Something that you may find helpful while drawing--and building--is a clear plastic material sometimes labeled as See-Temp. You can draw on it easily with a fine point Sharpie pen. You can trace templates and make exact left/right outlines of things like elliptical wings.

     http://seetemp.com/
You got me.  I was 12 when I got my first roll but I did use it up.  $18.99 at Sam's will give you enough to design about a100.  Erases beautifully.

Ken
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2018, 02:15:08 PM »
Thanks for the tip on the paper, Ken.

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2018, 06:46:49 AM »
Amazingly, I'm petty old school. I have Creo and SolidWorks but I still prefer to draw full-sized plans. They were cleaning out some old stuff at work andI found several rolls of 36" vellum waiting to be pitched - needless to say say I grabbed them.


I completely get using modeling and think it's great, but I just enjoy drawing it up full-scale. It's easy for me to visualize, and I just enjoy being in the shop with the oldies station on, a cold beer and and drawing tools.

What I really enjoy is that I get to doodle illustrations of style concepts and leave notes to myself everywhere.

I use the pretty much the same method as Ty, lay in the thrust line and work from there. Wings are easy, and my plans are only as complete as they need to be functional anyway. LE, TE, Rib centerlines. I've been building basically the same airplane for decades so I know where the sheeting and cap strips end up.

I do the typical slab-sided stunter so it's really just where do I want to put the canopy and what will the rudder look like this time, lol. Sometimes it comes down to what I have for wood available. If I have a really sweet block of 4# it's going to be a canopy fwd jet style, otherwise a sheeted turtle deck. Gotta go with flow and work with what you got.

Chuck
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2019, 10:51:23 AM »
The "Author's Guide" published on the AMA website is meant for those wishing to submit plans to Model Aviation magazine.  The guide mentions pencil drawings, done carefully, with neat lettering.  Lettering can also be typed on a separate piece of paper and cut and glued to the plan.  That looks pretty awful, but that's what they say.

I submitted pencil drawings on 10 X 10 "Clearprint" called "Fadeout" (blue lines) with lettering done using a lettering guide (one letter at a time).  So lettering wasn't perfectly straight.  Although MA traced my drawing in ink, my submission was good enough to publish.

So, for those not having a CAD program, the old fashioned pencil drawings are still valid.
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Offline phil c

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2019, 12:44:52 PM »
I pretty much use CAD because I don't have room for a table.  Hand drawing is fun, but CAD makes it much easier to change/clean up drawings.  The transition from paper to computer is not easy or intuitive

Get a free program, almost any one. They have been designed since AUTOCAD and use the same style interface with rows of tools around the edge, places to enter absolute or relative points, and other fancier tricks.  If you want, you can put things on different layers- outlines on one, details on another, internals on a third.  If you can remember what belongs on each layer it's much easier.  Otherwise you end up drawing from one layer to another and then putting the wrong stuff on the layer.  More hassle than erasing a pencil drawing.

Before Windows 10 I used Drafix CAD Ultra, circa 1992-93.  It's quite limited, but more than sufficient to draw a very accurate set of plans.  It's especially helpful when printing something because you can see pretty much how the lines will look on paper.  More modern programs can get complicated because every line, in fact often parts of lines, can have its own parameters, or style.

The latest program is a version of Turbocad for  Windows.  It's OK, but I'm not fond of it.  It is perfectly accurate if you draw to absolute points, vertex, midpoint, it shows extend guide lines, etc.  If you draw more or less freehand it uses arbitrary limits for +/- distance, angle resolution, etc.  so sometimes nothing lines up if you draw on a full sheet and then look at a close up and nothing quite lines up. It can get lost.  It's kind of slow.  It can lock up unexpectedly. I need it because the core cutter needs DFX files to make Gcode for the cutter.  It will draw valid DFX files without too much trouble.  For lazer cutting the drawing has to be cleaned up to eliminate overdrawn lines, points, shapes etc. and has the right line with since many lazers interpret that as power.

Another program to think about is Coresdraw 12 or so.  It is an illustration drawing program and uses a completely different way of drawing.  It emphasizes lines, curves, shapes, fonts, fills, shading, etc and can make some stunning drawings.    I use it mainly to translate DXF files.  It will work on anything up to Autocad 2000 back to 2.6.  It also works on debugging a drawing.  I had one that had a "0 length line".  It would show up in an item info screen but couldn't be erased, moved, or drawn.  Corel  erased it easily by selecting it and hitting delate.
phil Cartier

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 12:48:12 PM »
The problem with any CAD program on a home computer;  the screen is too small.  Hard to see fine details on a format only about 14" wide.  Going to "zoom", and you only see a little bit, and you lose the overall effect.

A full size paper drawing is nice.  You can see the "whole magilla" at one time.  Drawback;  changing anything involves erasing.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 01:39:47 PM »
The problem with any CAD program on a home computer;  the screen is too small.  Hard to see fine details on a format only about 14" wide.  Going to "zoom", and you only see a little bit, and you lose the overall effect.

A full size paper drawing is nice.  You can see the "whole magilla" at one time.  Drawback;  changing anything involves erasing.
Could not agree more.  I gave up on CAD a long time ago.  Give me a triangle, a french curve, an 18" metal ruler, a cheap #2 pencil, one of those redish school erasers, 12' of butcher paper and I am in design heaven.  Don't need no stinken computer to design a stunt ship - especially if you once had a job as a draftsman.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2019, 11:13:12 AM »
I recently bought a roll of "Clearprint" vellum with 10 X 10 fadeout blue lines.  Mail order from Staples.  Cost me something like $90, but that product is the ONLY thing for pencil work.  Erases completely, and the blue lines do not show on print-outs.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How do you Draw up Plans?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2019, 12:59:37 PM »
$1.79 Triangle
    .10 #2 Pencil
    .79 Eraser
   -0-  10' butcher paper stolen from wife.

The best plans are the ones drawn directly on the wood! LL~

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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