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Author Topic: Designing for windy conditions ?  (Read 1565 times)

Offline Bill Little

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Designing for windy conditions ?
« on: April 01, 2006, 04:38:51 PM »
Hi All,
So far, the best plane I have flown in competition as to handling the wind was my USA-1.  It was 54 oz. with a T&L ST G51 and a 11 3/4-4, 3 blade CF prop. 

Is there something in that design that is a factor, or was it just a case of a "blind hog grubbing up an acorn"?

My GeoJuno (Super Saturn based) with a PA 61 on pipe is a very close second.

The USA-1 didn't bobble upwind, and flew through the overhead 8s, etc.,  clean.  The GJ sometime cocks up the wing on the upwind side of the circle when it gets bad.

What is the general "design" theory for building a stunt ship that will most likely see a lot of wind and turbulence?  The closest contest site usually has those conditions due to the contest dates and local weather patterns.

Thanks!
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2006, 06:30:43 PM »
Bill,

It's all I can do to design an airplane that will fly at all.  Designing one for a strong wind I think would be reducing the thickness of the airfoil slightly to somewhat and keeping the aspect ratio in the 5-1 ballpark.  Then powering the airplane with a killer engine.  54 ounce plane with a ST .51 and 3 blade I would consider killer, a PA.61 SE or even RE I would call super killer!

Jim Pollock   javascript:replaceText(' ???', document.postmodify.message);
Huh    javascript:replaceText(' :o', document.postmodify.message);
Shocked

Offline ash

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 10:09:23 PM »
I've been collection theories, speculation, data, ideas and general purpose rubbish on this subject for a while and have come to some as yet, untested conclusions. My line of thinking is in the context of having a pair of models, one specifically for under 12 knot winds and one for over 12 knots. Turbulence is a given when its windy at any field I fly over, so I only consider both being simultaneously apparent.

Here's the summary from my design notes for the model I'm doing now. These specs are to contrast with the other Patternmaster-meets-Impact design I'm working on. Yatsenko and Diva influence may be apparent in the final craft:

Span 56"
Area 650sq"
AR 4.4-4.8:1
Flaps 3-4" short of full TE span
Flaps 25% at root, 18% at tips
Root section: 16% thick, 30% hp, Yatsenko/diva
Tip section: 17% thick, 22-25% hp, Yats/Diva
Tip shape: Elliptical, short TE, like Diva, Playboy, Tempest etc,
Planform: Elliptical, curved flap TE, possibly curved LE.
Assymetry: equal panels with possible tip ballast to add to usual tip weight.
5" bellcrank with long horns etc
MVVS49 on pipe
60oz weight target
wing mounted shock gear
skinny fuselage
large fin area with dorsal fin
18" tail moment, 9" nose moment
25-26% tail area
16mm aerofoiled, tapered stab, thinner elevator as per Igor's sections, pointy LE
Rabe rudder
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline ptg

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2006, 08:55:35 PM »
Adrian,

I think you are headed in the right direction and will be pleased with the results.  My current Skinny Diva features 14% thickness at the root and 9% at the tip.  It also has 1/4" more cord than the published version.  This puts the area somewhere around 690.  The weight with Magnum 36 and pipe is 53.5 oz in current flight trim.  So far it flight characteristics are simply outstanding.  I only have 34 flights on it (really bad weather in No. CA this year) and it definitely handles the wind and turbulence well. 

Incidentally, the previous version of the Skinny Diva was 64oz (foam wing and lots of car paint) and flew very well with the Magnum.

Hope you post some pictures when it is done.

Good Luck
Phil

 ;D it's really cool to be a "New Pilot"
PT Granderson

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 06:30:12 PM »
Adrian,

I think you are headed in the right direction and will be pleased with the results.  My current Skinny Diva features 14% thickness at the root and 9% at the tip.  It also has 1/4" more cord than the published version.  This puts the area somewhere around 690.  The weight with Magnum 36 and pipe is 53.5 oz in current flight trim.  So far it flight characteristics are simply outstanding.  I only have 34 flights on it (really bad weather in No. CA this year) and it definitely handles the wind and turbulence well. 

Incidentally, the previous version of the Skinny Diva was 64oz (foam wing and lots of car paint) and flew very well with the Magnum.

Hope you post some pictures when it is done.

Good Luck
Phil
 ;D it's really cool to be a "New Pilot"

Hi Phil,
You got Aaron, and me, started on the Magnum 36 and it has been great in his Ares.   I did not know that your Diva was 64 oz!  I guess the *little* Magnum will pull a LOT more than I considered!

Which pipe, and at what length, are you using?
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline ash

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 11:08:46 PM »
My current Skinny Diva features 14% thickness at the root and 9% at the tip.

Is this right - 9% tip thickness? Or should it be 19%?

I was originally going to have thinner tip section that root section (R=16%, T=15%), but concerns over tip stall and induced roll prevented me from going down that path.
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2006, 08:02:22 PM »
Well,

I don't know for a fact, but I have a belief that the higher aspect ratio of the
tip on a tapered wing will keep the tip from stalling first if it has slightly less
thickness than the root.   ::)

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2006, 06:37:03 PM »
Oh, boy.  Tip stalls!

Over the years the entire subject of tip stalls has taken on ever increasing amounts of fear based on hearsay.  It's probably worth a little bit of discussion.

Why does aviation fear a "tip stall"?

Primarily because full size airplanes (especially earlier ones with piston engines and tail wheels) were normally flown to a near full stall condition during the landing flair.  I can still remember my instructors in the Cessna 120s and 140s admonishing me to "hold it off 'til it stalls" just prior to touchdown.  Especially with tail draggers this was important because (unless the pilot was purposely trying to make a power on "wheel landing) if the airplane wasn't essentially completely stalled at touchdown the main gear would hit first, the tail would drop and instantly the wing would be producing enough lift to get the thing airborne again.  Landings similar to that seen with Ringmasters on hard surfaces would often result . (for the same reason, by the way!)

Because of that reality, it was very important that the "tips" of the wing didn't stall first.  This, very simply, was because the pilot's ability to control the roll axis of the ship depended on the part of the wing with the ailerons (the outer half, or tips) to continue flying to assure control during the touch down.

This was generally accomplished structurally by tweaking the tip upward at the trailing edge a bit to "wash out" the tips relative to the root.  The result is that the tip is always at a slightly lower angle of attack than the rest of the wing.  Thus, when the nose is pulled up the rest of the wing will stall (reach critical angle of attack) before the tips and, therefore roll control will be retained until in the landing roll.

The subject of tip stalls has become almost a mantra among our RC brethren because they are faced with very much the same sort of problems.  Landing on short strips with tail draggers raises exactly the same spector.  When you throw in the fact that the pilot doesn't have an airspeed indicator or angle of attack indicator to inform him of an impending stall you quickly realize that they must take the problem into serious consideration both during design and building phases and when flying.

We CL stunt guys don't really have those sorts of problems because we just don't do a whole lot in the roll axis.  If our ships stall they are going to drop the nose and either regain their lift and fly out of the stall --or they're going to run into the ground.  they aren't going to engage in any roll activities because we've got a tether on the inboard wingtip.

Thus, we really don't need to give a lot of thought to control of tip stall even though it has been part of the holy grail since the early days of stunt (don't recall who first came up with the "problem").  That was where the whole concept of a large percentage section at the tip came from, the logic being that a thicker section would stall later than a thinner version of the same airfoil.  Probably true but, in the practical sense, not a big deal for us.

The truth is that under power (especially in our modern era) the whole thought of a stall due to inadequate airspeed (the usual type of stall we think about) is pretty farfetched.  It can certainly happen on the glide and that is a subject for a different discussion, but the need to avoid "tip stalls" on today's stunters is pretty much theoretical and not particularly germane.

Now, that is not to say that you can't force a stunt ship to stall in a variety of ways.  The classic case (difficult but doable with the right set of trim conditions) would be the accelerated stall where the tail authority is such that it can drive the wing to an angle of attack at which it will no longer produce lift (beyond critical angle of attack). 

This can be done regardless of airspeed which may be a bit of a surprise to some.  Although it is common to discuss "stall speeds" and all full size aircraft flight manuals publish them for all flap positions and weights, it is not the airspeed that causes a stall.  The stall is the result of the wing's angle of attack being in excess of that at which airflow will remain laminar to the surface.  This angle for a given airfoil is known as the "critical" A of A and if the wing is driven to such an angle it will stall regardless of the airspeed of the craft to which it is attached.

If you couple such aggressive control inputs with a poorly designed airfoil (too thin or too sharp) you can, indeed, make a wing stall.  This is exactly how, by the way, the full scale or RC pilot produces the stall necessary to perform a snap roll.  Every watch a Pitts or Christian Eagle go flashing off the end of the runway after take off and all of a sudden snap off a 360 degree roll?  (by the way, this is an extreme example of the roll/yaw couple about which Brett is quick to talk in trim conversations) 

If you watch carefully you'll see that the first thing that happens in that maneuver is an aggressive positive pitch change.  The wing stalls (despite the obvious pretty high airspeed), the pilot socks the rudder to the yaw axis and the airplane performs a horizontal 360 degree spin.  As the wings return to level the pilot relaxes the back pressure and the airplane immediately resumes its previous.straight ahead flight path.  Stall! Snap! Recover!  Almost as fast as you can type it.

At any rate, with modern powerplants, good airfoils  and reasonable wing loadings stunt pilots don't really need to design with an eye towards stalls of any sort during the pattern and they certainly don't have to give more then lip service to where any stall might occur along the wing span.

Sure, you don't want to "ask for" a stall at the tips by making the leading edge real sharp at the tips while it's nice and blunt at the root.  But, even if you do, the result will be lousy maneuvers because that part of the wing isn't producing any lift.  That's all.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2006, 06:44:35 PM »
Ooops, forgot...

Not to speak for Phil re the Diva but, regarding concerns about the very thin tip, I'd like to make the following comment.

Take a look at the planform of the Diva and you'll see that it hasn't a full span flap.  By definition, the part of the wing span that isn't flapped will always be at a lower angle of attack when maneuvering with flaps deflected on the inner part of the wing. 

A of A is measured from the leading edge to the trailing edge.  When flaps are deflected the trailing edge of that part of the wing is phyically lower thus increasing the angle of attack that would exist were there no deflected flap.

As a result, it is unlikely (maybe impossible but I'm loath to make such a bold statement) that the tip will ever reach critical angle of attack before the main body of the wing with deflected flaps.

Ted

Online Matt Colan

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Re: Designing for windy conditions ?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 07:18:35 PM »
My Ares has a swept foward trailing edge, and according to Bill in his Vulcan article, a swept foward trailing edge is good for windy conditions, because the amount of stick pressure is reduced in high wind conditions.  That is caused because the center of pressure won't move as far back as on a straight trailing edge model.  I don't have the article right in front of me, but in general that is what he said.  I've flown in high winds and I really haven't noticed much, if any stick pressure difference between my Ares and my smoothie.

By the way, there were a lot of replies before the crash and I just thought I'd revive this thread.  H^^
Matt Colan


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