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Author Topic: Bi-Planes  (Read 1393 times)

Offline Ron Merrill

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Bi-Planes
« on: June 22, 2006, 12:55:24 PM »
This is a question that has been asked a 1000 times, but why are there no really completive stunt bi-planes in .60 size. I really love two wings and they look good in the air. Hope this is not a dumb question.


Online peabody

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 02:46:59 PM »
DRAG

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 04:33:57 PM »
Trimming a multiple-wing plane is a real challenge, especially the fine trim needed for competitive PA.  You can make it fly, and fly pretty well, but I don't know if you could ever make it fly great. Adding the second wing increases the trim problems by about a factor of 3, seems like.  Vertical balance becomes very significant, as well as equalizing the drag above and below thrust line; then there's the increased side area that the wind messes with; lessee, what else?  Setting the wings parallel with each other makes it unstable; a couple of degrees negative incidence on the top or positive on the bottom seems to help, for whatever reason...set the wings too close together and they mess up each other's lift; too far apart and you produce moment arms too long from that vertical COG; downthrust is nearly always a must since the things tend to balloon, and who knows what that does to inverted flight...These are things I've  found, and I don't even know what I'm doing.  I love biwings and triwings but then I'm not a competition stunt flier either.  They just look cool lumbering around.  that's my opinion and I'm stuck with it, er, sticking with it.

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Walter Hicks

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 07:10:38 PM »
Don Hutsensons Stearmans fly competitively.

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 08:32:36 AM »
Second that on Don's Stearman as I have had the pleasure of judging him flying one.   Plans in Flying Models, as I recall.  Biplane in capable hands has won OTS at the VSC a couple of times. I think it is simply a matter than no top flier has sat down and decided to campaign a biplane.

Eric Viglione

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 07:38:06 PM »
Owen Richards scaled up a Dixon 38 Special and put a full body on it with a DS 61RE. The thing actually flies a nice corner! It seems to have been more of a novelty item for him, for some reason, and I haven't really seen him fly it often, but I think the idea worked out great.

Eric V.

Offline wmiii

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 08:15:47 PM »
Second that on Don's Stearman as I have had the pleasure of judging him flying one.   Plans in Flying Models, as I recall.  Biplane in capable hands has won OTS at the VSC a couple of times. I think it is simply a matter than no top flier has sat down and decided to campaign a biplane.

 But remember, the OTS pattern doesn't have, square eights, hour glass, triangles. I've watch Bart fly it and agree it's fun to watch. Bart
stated that you have to be really carefull, something about a stall. I
would like to build the Orwick .64 version someday though.

 Walter
walter menges

Offline c.maikis

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2006, 09:40:53 AM »
Hi friends,
I really don't think that biplanes are as bad as many people think. Probably nobody has ever tried to really design one for serious competition.
I flew my Duetto bipe in the late 80s, and quite successful, at that. Honestly I think that I got some point gifts from the judges, but I won a few contests with Duetto, and you cannot do this with a bad airplane. I had put all my knowledge about stunt design ( how ever much that is !) into this model, and it flew right off the board, as they say. One drawback: in very hot weather it didn't like the hourglass corners.
One of my friends wanted to build a biplane, too. I gave my plan to him, but recommended to increase the size slightly and use a ST60 ( instead of my ST46 ). My friend  is not a top pilot, but looking from the outside I got the impression that he did in fact fly just as well as usual.
Now a pilot from France has asked me for the plans. The model has just been finished, I'm waiting for his comments.
Last not least Luciano Compostella ( several times European Champion and many high placings ) has flown his Falco design in many big European contests and has won them  or placed high. If my memory serves me right he used a big  four stroke engine ).
I'd be really interested to know how the Biceps biplane flies. Is there any good flyer who can give a competent judgement?
Regards,  claus 

Offline c.maikis

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2006, 09:48:58 AM »
Second attempt !!
Somehow I only managed to include two photos. Here are the other two:  the "Twini" of my friend Lutz ( who was very pleased with his model ) , and the new airplane of Thierry Sonier ( France ) which is the same design.
claus

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2006, 11:51:57 AM »
Hi Claus!

I thought of you when this question came up.  But I could not remember "Duetto"!  Not wanting to sound too stupid, I didn't say anything hoping I would remember the name!   j1 **) **)

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Offline Ron Merrill

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 04:58:57 PM »
Thanks for the input. I just knew there had to be some good designs out there. Since i am not good at designing maybe i will run across a set of plans i can build from.  I like the Ultimate design and have tried to convert some R/C designs but have not had a lot of luck doing that '' so will keep looking. There are plenty of power plants i think to overcome the drag n~. Many Thanks Ron. j1

Online Wynn Robins

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2006, 11:19:23 PM »
Claus,

I have plans for the Boogie Woogie that you designed....how does/did that fly??

where can I get plans for the Duetto????

In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline c.maikis

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2006, 03:40:07 PM »
Hello Wynn,
to answer your questions:
The BoogieWoogie is a fun airplane. It was built to have a model in the Oldtime style a la "stick and tissue" look. It was powered by an Enya 45. This model can do all round manoeuvres very well, except for the Vertical Eight ( it needs more than 90 degrees !). Squares are VERY soft, Hourglass not possible if you want to recognize it!
The DUETTO is fully capable of the FAI schedule. If I would build it again, I would increase airfoil thickness from ( original ) 13% to at least 15% or even more.
You can have a full size plan, or a reduced 29 X 21 cm copy, and/or a copy of the original Aeromodeller article.
I'm not an expert at this forum business. I'll try to send you a private message and give you my Email address, and I need your post address. If that doesn't work please place a reply in this forum and we'll have to find another solution.
Regards,  claus

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 03:32:14 PM »
Hello Claus,
I'm afraid you may have started something here that will involve some time!  meaning, of course, that several of us who have been playing with bipes would like copies of your plans.  I'm more than willing to pay whatever to get them and maybe I can solve some of the "wiggle" problems I get in really sharp corners with my biplane designs from the '60's.
My email is wilhint@henry-net.com if you need it and I can then send you my post address.
Thanks much for your help to stunt!
Blessings,
Will Hinton
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Andrew Raney

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2006, 09:30:22 PM »
I modified a Sig Ultimate r/c profile for control line with an O.S. 65 4s, it flies a respectable pattern (for me), but you have to be ready to land when the engine quits.  I also have an original design 40 profile bipe that does a great pattern but also is an earth seeking missile when the engine quits.
Andrew

Offline Bob Zambelli

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2006, 08:05:28 AM »
I'm flying my Staggerwing more and more and I believe that with a good pilot at the handle, it would be quite a capable competitor. y1

Although there are some minor trim issues, it seems to be a no-nonsense flyer. Just goes where it's pointed.

Due to the substantial wing spacing, I do not believe that drag is an issue.

Also, drag gets reduced considerably when I retract the gear.

It has a very low wing loading which helps.


Bob Z.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 08:41:32 AM »
Hi Bob,

That is one great looking model!

I can't remember......... is that your design or the Jack Sheeks one?

Thanks
Bill <><
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Offline Bob Zambelli

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Re: Bi-Planes
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 09:24:56 AM »
Hi, Bill - it's an entirely original design, built around a SAITO .56.

It is actually quite close to scale.

Bob Z.


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