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Author Topic: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane  (Read 24902 times)

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2011, 03:33:01 PM »
Chris, your idea of increasing thickness on one wing only sounds funny. Maybe some experts should take a look at this experiment. For this old lazy guy here this is not a suitable solution : I fabricate ALL ribs for both wings in one stack !!
Regards,  Claus

If as John says "the top wing (is) more efficient than the lower wing" and therefore producing more lift then it makes sense to modify the lower wing to try and regain its lost efficiency, no?

I believe that Al Rabe used asymmetric airfoils due to his scale looking models needing more lift in one flight orientation than the other and it could be the same here.

I am no expert on this but just an avid observer though!
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2011, 08:30:12 PM »
Now what would happen if it was a (horizontally) split monoplane wing ?

i.e. Top half of wing top , bottom half of wing bottom .Parrallel surfaces between (Gap).

Its normal for (full Size) bi-planes to run 'longitudeinal' diheadral.(an iota + incidance top wing)
Probably the pressure / channeling effect between wings infuanceing airflow & efficancy.
Anyone know if Pitts and other full size aerobatic things run ' 0 - 0 ' on the incidance / thrustline. ?

Al Rabe states in one of his Articals , that it was in the CENTRE SECTION that he used assymetric
airfoil .A Hurricane I did useing this had some intresting unexpected benifitts resulting from less
extreme flow changes , thus better lift in OPPOSITE areas of envelope than logic would determine .

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2011, 11:07:21 AM »
Mather=w,
generally incidence on biplanes exists to control the center of pressure as the angle of attack changes, IE the top wing stalls first, and the CP moves back making it "nose heavy" which then self trims the angle of attack somewhat to keep it from stalling. Not something we want on a stunt plane IMHO
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2011, 05:30:19 PM »
I can't believe it, I'm almost finished with the 2 Bits Bipe plans. It's a design I've had on the burner since about 2004, but, I had to make some changes as I learned more about biplane design.

I wound up with a pair of relatively high aspect ratio wings, spaced about 1.3 chords apart, Though the individual wings are High A.R. the combined chords make it fall into the more normal A.R. we see in stunt ships. I'm depending on the individual high A.R.'s will give me the efficiencies these planforms are known for, and the combined lower A.R. will help to avoid the tendency to become unsettled in turbulence.

     I am pretty close to being done with a profile bipe plans that came out pretty darn close to this - not quite the aspect ratio, but still high, without flaps. And smaller. And by plans, I don't mean nice CAD drawings, just pencil marks on butcher paper as befits my troglodyte approach to almost everything. If I did it right, it will fit right over the engine cover on my little hot rod, if I take the landing gear off.

    Brett
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 07:50:43 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2011, 06:44:36 PM »
A really good bipe is like the last frontier - I LIKE what John is doing and he has a great chance of success.
Denny Adamisin
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2011, 07:55:17 PM »
A really good bipe is like the last frontier - I LIKE what John is doing and he has a great chance of success.

   I think having the "hammers of hades" type power available makes it perfectly viable. I wouldn't do it with 4-2 break engines, I think there's just not enough reserve on tap to handle the drag.

    Brett

Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2011, 05:16:25 PM »
I agree on the use of extreem power for this design. I'm considering a Rustler-Belko .76 for it. I've been deeply imerseed in a bunch of "for pay" projects that have kept me away from starting construction. I did get quotes for the Laser Cutting. I don't mind building it during the summer. H^^
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2011, 02:01:08 PM »
I agree on the use of extreem power for this design. I'm considering a Rustler-Belko .76 for it. I've been deeply imerseed in a bunch of "for pay" projects that have kept me away from starting construction. I did get quotes for the Laser Cutting. I don't mind building it during the summer. H^^

Looking at the plans, I didn't think that it looked "too draggy". I was going to put either a PA 51 or 61 in mine. The wings seem small and thin to me, not in a bad way.

John, the only question I have is about the stab and elevators. They seemed kinda small, especially since there will be a big engine up front. I love the plane, I have wanted to build a (competitive) bipe for years.

Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2011, 03:19:33 PM »
Hi Derek

I tried to avoid making it extreemly draggy, but with the cabain struts, and the wig tip struts, there is additional drag due to being a Bipe.

I strong PA .51 on a pipe may indeed be enough, and using PA's may be a good because they can be easily upsized should the pilot feel it's needed. I'm considering the engines I am, because I'm still enamored with a good 4-2-4 stunt run. I know I should at least try running a pipe, but with the advent of reliable electric power, I may wind up going over to e-power before I go to using a pipe.

Here's what I did on the Stab and elevators, along with my thinking about the whys and wherefores.

The stab and elevator is almost 19% of the combined area of the two wings. Since the stab and elevator are removable, I wanted to test the idea that since both wings act as one, they may not require the larger area of 24-26% to be effective in this planform. If I'm wrong, I will be able to change them out rather easily.

I've a few projects still under way, but, I hope to order the laser cut parts within the next few weeks. I'll be happy to let you know how the parts look before you start one for yourself. I imagine that should you decide to build one, it'll be after you've finished your main stunter for the next season.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2011, 09:05:28 PM »
Looking at the plans, I didn't think that it looked "too draggy". I was going to put either a PA 51 or 61 in mine. The wings seem small and thin to me, not in a bad way.


   Oh, I think a 61 would be fine and a 51 will probably do the trick.

    Brett

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2011, 09:13:28 AM »
John- Looking at the drawings once again I see that there are flaps on both wings. My experience with the last Stearman might be of some use to you when it comes time to fly. I only have flaps on the lower wing but when first testing, I could not get it to turn. The flaps were almost overpowering the elevators for pitch control. I then lengthened the flap horn and now it turns fine. Just measured the horn the other day and it is 2 inches long, twice the length of the elevator horn. If your test model doesn't turn just like any other model, having this much adjustment available may help the situation. Looking forward to hearing some flight reports.
Don


Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2011, 04:10:59 PM »
Hi Don, I sure enjoyed seeing, and spending, some time with you at VSC. Thanks for your advice, and experiences with your Stearmans.

I purposely made the flaps small compared to single wing designs because I wasn't too sure that flaps would even be needed with a biplane.

One of the reasons I made every thing take apart, was to be able to easily make changes. I believe that I will take your advise and use a longerr flap horn right from the beginning though.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2011, 01:14:17 PM »
I imagine that should you decide to build one, it'll be after you've finished your main stunter for the next season.

Yes, the new one is almost done, its in final silver now and waiting for trim. I really like the look of your bipe and I have always wanted one so it is definitely on my to do list.

Offline RogerGreene

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2012, 07:35:41 PM »
Hi John,

I have been reading about your stunt Biplane and did you get it finished? Any photos? How did it fly? Would you build another one?

Just wanting to know..


Thanks Roger

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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2012, 08:09:20 PM »
Greetings Roger. I'm building a new, larger, set of wings that will give me a better wing loading as well as more flap area. I wound up near the edge wing loading wise, and though it flew well in the rounds, the last corner in the squares needed some help. I expect to finish building the new wings after I get back from VSC. After that, I plan on building another and use some weight saving methods I've been thinking about.

I believe it will be a decent stunter, once the wing loading is at the proper level.

As I said, the plane flew decently except for the last corner of the squares. It has a very decent glide after the power shuts down, unlike several other Biplanes I've seen. H^^
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Offline KenP51

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2012, 06:19:08 AM »
Hi John
That is one darn good looking plane.
Great lines.
Have you made the plans or laser cut files available?

I have only built one control line bi-plane. Designed it as I built it, back when I was maybe a sophomore in hi school. Had an Enya .09 up front. It flew OK but was certainly no stunt machine. But I have had a love affair with bi-planes ever since.
Yours is the first control line stunter that just jumped out and grabbed me.

Beautiful :)
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2012, 06:28:20 AM »
Hi TY, Yes, I'm sure it'll fly the square corner better at lower altitude. But, If I get it flying the square corner better up here at 4600ASL, it should be a cinch at lower altitudes. I've extended the wings, and made the flaps larger. Norm Whittle has been helpful with his suggestions.

Ken, thank you for your kind words. Unabashedly, I find I agree, it does have nice lines. It is drawn in CAD, and I have the laser cut files for it as well, I've released a few to other builders, but with the larger wings and flaps. Send me a PM if you want more information. H^^
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2012, 07:39:18 AM »
John,

The design is really great as are your others.

I'll take a laser vectored line art file and build one.

What is the cost of the file?

Or are you supplying the kit?

Charles

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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2012, 11:17:40 AM »
Hi Charles, Thank you for the compliment. As you are probably aware, encouragement of our friends, and peers, helps to keep us motivated.

Alas, due to less than desirable experiences in the past, I rarely, if ever, release my cad, or vector, files into the wild, but I can supply you with hard copies, or  PDF files that you can have printed locally.

I have offered, and sold a few, short kits. I prefer the short kit, as the customer usually has his own products that are preferred. Also. sheet stock of balsa, and plywood can be ordered from the various suppliers and delivered for only the one shipping cost.

Contact me via PM or E-mail and we'll talk. H^^

John Miller
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2012, 02:17:52 PM »
I believe it will be a decent stunter, once the wing loading is at the proper level.

Just bring it to me down here at sea level so it can live out its life with wing loading at the proper level.

That is right up there with your Torino in prettiness.
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Offline sleepy gomez

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2012, 09:47:04 PM »
While on the subject of biplanes:

Offline RogerGreene

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2012, 10:05:42 AM »
John, Super looking plane!!! Nice job, and I like the high a/r of the wings. Would just a little more elevator than flap help on the cornering?

Roger
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »
Nobody will mistake me for an engineer, but I was also wondering if the flaps sometimes create more drag than lift.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2012, 03:11:12 PM »
I know it will ruin the look of the model but I can't help but think that the (cabane?) wing struts would be better off on the extremity of the wings tips and so act as tip plates.

This could help prevent some tip losses and regain lift.
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2012, 03:47:48 PM »
Excellent comments guys. Let me address my thoughts on them.

Roger, I'm a big fan of using less flap rotation that elevator. Typically, I set my planes up initially with about 25 degrees of flaps and about 33 degrees of elevator. I only go to 1/1 when the plane is heavy, and needs the extra lift during a hard corner.

PertiMe is correct that Flaps can cause more drag than lift. Seldom, even with very portly planes, does one see more than 15-20 degrees of flap rotation. High flap rotation, IMO, comes from trying to fly with too narrow a flap chord for the lift needed in the maneuver.

What I am now working on, based on suggestions by Norm Whittle, who studies these things, is increasing the total area of the wings. This also includes the area of the flaps. I have extended the wing tips and increased the chord of the flaps. This will give me about 50-70 sq. inches of additional wing area. ( I don't have the charts handy, or I could give you exact numbers.)
The wider chord will allow more lift to be created with out having to deflect the control surface as much as with the narrower flaps.  It should lessen the drag that's created at extreme throws. It should also increase the net total lift produced in the maneuver at the same time.

Chris, Using the cabane struts as tip plates has merit, but they may not work as well in that function, due to being asymmetrical in application, being mounted between the upper and lower wings, with nothing on the other side of each wing. I have mounted them about as far out as seems wise. At the point where they are located, they are supported by the wing structure, and form an important part of maintaining the structure, and stregnth of the wings. If I moved them further out, I still would not be able to go much further out than they are, without messing up the elliptical properties of the wing itself.

It's the high AR, and the elliptical properties of the wings that should make more differences in lift generation, IMO, than much else I could do with tip plates. Don't get me wrong a rectangular wing with tip plates can work pretty good, but, An elliptical platform really doesn't need tip plates, again, IMO.

Still, good suggestions that show innovation, and thought. H^^
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 05:04:53 PM by John Miller »
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2012, 04:30:13 PM »
Good point Howard. Flutter would not be good. I'll see what I can do. Might wind up driving from a single flap rod, right behing the cabane strut.

Thanks

John H^^

Easy, John.  turn the aft pointing horns around and drive them through the wings.  A short rigid aft spar spanning a couple of ribs on each side of the horns should restore adequate rigidity to allow the gap at the hinge line that results, I would think.

Another thing worth considering...as you are going into the ether re conventional stunt design...would be to cut the flaps into 2/3 inboard and 1/3 outboard and try flying with the outer 1/3 fixed (like the original Imitation) and compare maneuverability.  Any negative pitching moments that might be encountered on the high aspect ratio wing with full span flaps could well be mitigated by the partial flap option.  The high aspect ratio should cut down on the need for lots of flap deflection which may well assist in allowing more aggressive maneuvering as well.

Ted

Edit:  Oops, just re-reviewed the plans.  There ain't enough ribs to mount an aft spar to.  Back to square one.  I do like the extended drive arm which should help minimize the hinge loading on the "driven" upper flaps.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2012, 05:27:24 PM »
I have extended the wing tips and increased the chord of the flaps. This will give me about 50-70 sq. inches of additional wing area. ( I don't have the charts handy, or I could give you exact numbers.)
The wider chord will allow more lift to be created with out having to deflect the control surface as much as with the narrower flaps.  It should lessen the drag that's created at extreme throws. It should also increase the net total lift produced in the maneuver at the same time.

Hinge moment increases with the square of flap chord.  That could result in the pickle that Don mentioned above.

Chris, Using the cabane struts as tip plates has merit, but they may not work as well in that function, due to being asymmetrical in application, being mounted between the upper and lower wings, with nothing on the other side of each wing. I have mounted them about as far out as seems wise. At the point where they are located, they are supported by the wing structure, and form an important part of maintaining the structure, and stregnth of the wings. If I moved them further out, I still would not be able to go much further out than they are, without messing up the elliptical properties of the wing itself.

It's the high AR, and the elliptical properties of the wings that should make more differences in lift generation, IMO, than much else I could do with tip plates. Don't get me wrong a rectangular wing with tip plates can work pretty good, but, An elliptical platform really doesn't need tip plates, again, IMO.

For the real lowdown on that stuff, see http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/flightops/aerodynamics/Wingtip_Devices.pdf
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2012, 06:32:01 PM »
Skimmed through Howards referenced article, I think I have "endplate paradigm"
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2012, 07:05:14 PM »
I also read through it, as I'm interested in finding the best possible solution to taming the corner. Especially the last corner where the added effects of gravity come into play.  HB~>

What I got from it is that there are a number of solutions, but nearly all are the result of compromises. I can see where the vertical cabanes between the wings can have some positive, as well as negative effects. How to deal with them, seems to be up for interpretation. Is that about right Howard?

Ted's comments have got me thinking. It would be rather simple to cut the flaps and experiment with reduced area. I'm not certain that there's a good set of numbers for flap ratios, throws, and such for a Biplane. I've seen some non-flapped Biplanes fly some rather decent corners, when loaded at a reasonable level. At least, if nothing else, it may contribute to the knowledge base for Biplanes flying in our cl stunt regimens.

I'm attaching jpegs of the new wings for comparison. You'll be able to see what I've been up to.

 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2012, 07:31:50 PM »
For the real lowdown on that stuff, see http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/flightops/aerodynamics/Wingtip_Devices.pdf

He shows the induced drag reduction for a boxed-off biplane, but not for a plain ol' biplane.  Do you happen to remember the figure?

I wonder if there's much advantage to be had by making the interwing lifting in just the right directions and magnitudes.

John, I think you need to stick to the primary reason for building a bipe: it just looks kewl.  If someone wants to challenge you to a contest of layman's aerodynamics, then you can point out the induced drag advantages of a biplane, but in point of fact I don't think you'd be doing this if it weren't for the aesthetics of the thing.
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2012, 10:26:27 PM »
Good point Tim. It does look really kewl out there on the end of the lines.
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Offline RogerGreene

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2012, 10:58:02 PM »
John, you may have sparked a whole new event, Biplane Stunt!

Does anyone have ideas on the subject?   y1

Roger
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2012, 05:05:01 PM »
Doesn't Al Rabe refer to modern stunters with large tail volumes as 'horizontal biplanes' anyway?

So if all this is about 'vertical biplanes' then perhaps factoring the tail would in fact produce a triplane! ???
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Almost finished with it, my stunt Biplane
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2012, 02:06:04 PM »
charles,,, who are you talking to,maybe i can help, I dont see where Chris is building a biplane,, now my buddy John who started this thread was,, and did,,
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