Author Topic: Monoline trainer (Read 1859 times)

Lyle Spiegel · « **on:** May 02, 2011, 09:46:28 PM »

I'd like to build a trainer to learn to fly monoline. Is there any particular plane that others have used for this purpose? Something for a Fox 35 would be perfect. I have my Aluminum grip handle / twist unit- does anyone sell torque unit?

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2011, 07:11:44 PM »

I think you could build a suitable trainer from something like a simple rat racer with the Fox 35 probably run a 9x7 prop. One thing you need to do is build it without landing gear and use a dolly to launch. You need to have the ship flat and come off the way a full speed ship would, if the nose is pointed up you will likely just go up and over the top and into the ground (you ask how does he know this - I did it then built a big "B" speed ship to lean on). The mono line system has control but within limits, more like big trim tabs. If you launch flat you can control the ship movements. Here is the trick - as the ship goes high pull back on the up (more of a pump don't hold it) near the high point to hold it high, it will sink low and when it gets to the low point pump the down to flatten it out on the low side. Don't try to push in down when it is going up, always add control at the high and low points. Trim the ship to be a little nose heavy (like 10% in back of the leading edge). This should get you going.

Best, DennisT

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:53:05 PM »

Look here for H&R-type "Torque Units", under "Fast Hippy Speed Products".
http://flyinglines.org/fleamarket.html That's Marty Higgs, a speed/racer from British Columbia. From what I've heard, his work is top notch.

I flew with both Stanzel and H&R torque units back in the '60's, and would highly recommend the H&R type units. The response is much quicker and more predictable, installation easier, and they're stronger. No negatives I ever found.

The suggestion for using a rat racer would be excellent advise, along with the takeoff dolly. I'd suggest a Quicky Rat type of plane...profile. Not sure what plans can be had, but the one thing you cannot do is use a big elevator. The elevator can be about 4" long x 5/8" wide or there abouts. Narrow is good, wide isn't.

Steve

Lyle Spiegel · « **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2011, 07:07:26 AM »

I have partially completed Goldberg Scat Rat and the plans- wing was setup for conventional 2 line bellcrank- would not take much to make a new wing-
Would appreciate any additional details showing how to install the Monoline unit and location. For simplicity I assume the controls would not need to be internal through the wing? -
I have a mousetrap / Lauderdale style Dolly that was gifted to me by Santo years ago when we were playing with B speed. Will need to find some wheels- any suggested sources?
Lyle

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:02:22 PM »

The Scat-Rat would be good, but I'm sure you'll need to reduce elevator area to about 25% or less. One side is a start. If it's too big, it will flutter, won't control anything, and the plane probably won't lift off...if you're lucky. On a dirty site, that can toast an engine.

It should be easy to just hang the H&R type torque unit on the outside with a bit of plywood and epoxy. Use Line 2 or Line 3 program to figure out the rake angle, and line the unit up with the leadout guide as perfectly as you can. Figure on 75 mph (about what most FoxBergs do), use the "B" line at 60' or maybe 55'. If you're thinking about using a Stanzel unit, all I can say is...DON'T! Ok, I really do hate them...

I've used lift-off dollies and pin dollies, but never used a mousetrap, tho I knew guys who did. Some work, some don't, they have to be light, they're a bit fragile, and always need checking and tweeking. It's really not good to have one stuck on the plane as it's flying around, but worse if it comes loose. I'd guess that a piped model would maybe require a mousetrap dolly, but your trainer will not, so I would suggest a liftoff. Use a 3 wheeler...use treaded up front or smooth tires on all 3. Use big wheels up front...3" to 4". The rear wheel should be pretty small (1.5" to 2") light and not treaded. Big DuBro or Dave Brown wheels will work and hold up pretty well. Sullivan is real "proud" of their wheels....$$$.

The dolly needs to slide sideways (with the weight of the plane on it) without yawing in or out. This is so you can whip the model during takeoff without it turning in at you. Very unpleasant! I had a piece of an "A" line about 10' long. I would hook that to the controls and drag it sideways on asphalt to make sure it slid without yawing. Better to yaw outboard a little...yawing in is not good at all! This is why 4 wheel dollies are generally NG...too much rear traction. You can adjust this somewhat by moving the wheels relative to the CG. I liked to have the front axle at the plane of the prop, and sometimes shortened up the rear axle position to make it work. Your Scat-Rat is a relatively huge plane to fly off a dolly (to me, anyway), so I'd suggest a front track of about 20" and wheelbase about the same. Piano wire isn't cheap anymore, it seems.

It's a bad idea to try to put the plane into any sort of dolly with the engine running, OBTW. I'd prefer that you didn't do that. Things happen quickly when you shed a prop. Have a shutdown procedure figured out before you need it. I had to shut down my tuned pipe stunter this week. Damned clunk tank, too. Finger over the pipe exit is quickest, and no burned finger, tho it was expected. On a muffler, the finger gets burned a bit. Rag in the prop (that's already gone) maybe won't work. What to do with a tongue muffler? Your profile should be ok to just choke to death, or pinch the fuel feed, but have a plan and maybe even try it to see what happens.

Steve

Thomas Wilk · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2011, 08:14:06 PM »

I have these Rat Racers scanned from the modeling magazines;

Altair No.5    1959 Model Airplane News Dec p16     30.00     120.00    .29-35    Bartlett, Don
A-Rat    1970 Aero Modeler Jun p328    26.00    97.50    .15-.21    Clarkson, Dave C
A-Rat 135    1976 Aero Modeler Mar p158    30.00     135.00    .15     Richardson, P S
Army Rat     1960 American Modeler Sep p31    19.00    76.00    .35     Sanders, Warren
Bobcat     1978 Model Aviation Apr p40    35.00     279.25    .35     Kilsdonk, John F
Bullet     1962 American Modeler Jul p26    27.62    95.00    .35     Wooten, Riley
Cal-Rat    1962 American Modeler Nov p34    36.00     107.00    .35     Greenshields, John & Garcia, Jack
Canadian Rat Racer     1964 American Modeler Jan-Feb p74    26.00     107.00    .40     Bohn, Bill F
Cheeze Hound    1958 American Modeler Oct p30    25.00    91.25    .29     Ehling, Frank V B
Cobra    1983 Model Aviation Jul p65    30.00    90.00    .40     Lambert, Dick
Dangerous Dart     1959 American Modeler Sep p30    19.50     302.25    .29     Sampson, Don
Desert Rat     1962 American Modeler Apr p14    20.00    78.00    .35     Yearout, Don
Eastern Rat Racer    1961 American Modeler Annual p50     24.18    77.00    .35     Burke, Don
Fantastic Flying Machine     1967 American Modeler Jul p14    30.50     120.00    .40     Flinn, Pat
Firebird Too     1962 Model Airplane News Jun p14     30.00     127.00    .35     Barr, John E
Grmzpf     1967 Aero Modeler Aug p426    36.00     110.50    .40     Burke, Don
Grmzpf-8     1967 Model Airplane News Oct p11     36.00     110.50    .40     Burke, Don
Hooptee    1967 Model Airplane News May p18     29.00    96.25    .40     Kilsdonk, John F
Hooptee III    1976 Model Aviation Jan p28    28.00     100.50    .40     Kilsdonk, John F
Hooptee Too II     1969 American Aircraft Modeler Oct p36     27.50    89.75    .40     Kilsdonk, John F
Hot Cinders    1958 American Modeler Dec p22    24.00    90.00    .35     Netzeband, Bill F Jr
Karatter     1970 Aero Modeler Feb p95     36.00     139.90    .40     Poulton, K R & Thurley, C
King Rat     1964 Model Airplane News Nov p24     25.00     112.50    .29     Hamblet, Tom
Log    1965 Model Airplane News Jan p27     27.00    40.00    .40     Martin, Jerry
Midi slow    1983 Model Aviation Mar p69    37.75     330.00    .20     Clarkson, Dave C
Pagan Rat    1962 Model Airplane News May p25     29.00     140.00    .29     Easton, John R
Pied Piper     1959 Model Airplane News May p22     30.00     148.50    .35     Judge, Bill
Pink Fink III    1966 Model Airplane News Mar p14     27.00     107.40    .40     Adamisin, Archie
Scat Rat   Carl Goldberg Kit   32.00   144.00   .29-.40   Faid, Charles – Netzeband, Bill – McVicker, F. C. – Pawlowski, Ron
Schtick    1965 Model Airplane News May p21     30.00     127.50    .15     Barnhart, Ron
Sev 3    1957 Model Airplane News Sep p17     24.00     139.20    .35     Van DenBerg, R J
Shark    1979 Model Airplane News May p46     36.00   128.70    .40     Gillott, Tim
Shoestring     1977 Model Builder Jan p39    32.00     202.50    .15     Melton, Bill
Sizzler II     1974 Model Airplane News Dec p16     36.50     281.75    .36     McEndree, Jim A Jr
Snake    1977 Model Aviation Jun p25    28.00    94.50    .40     Lambert, Henry
Snark Rat    1961 Flying Models Oct-Nov p21    32.00     182.75    .35     Lowry, Ernest
Texas Quickie Rat    1986 Model Aviation Aug p72    24.00    89.50    .40     Williams, Frank
Tigre Rat    1970 Model Airplane News Mar p11     32.00     127.25    .40     Melton, Bill
Tor-Rat    1961 Flying Models Aug-Sep p20    29.00     143.75    .35     Scarinzi, Larrry
Weaver's Whiplash    1966 American Modeler Nov-Dec p21    26.00     120.00    .40    TOM'S PROP DOGERS DESIGN

Some of the publications still offer full size plans of these models.

Lyle Spiegel · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:29:54 AM »

Can you please explain about using Line 2 or Line 3 program to figure out the rake angle?
I believe at one tme someone had posted a progrm to show how tom calculate it- I searched on line but was unable to find it.
Another option to Scat RAt for an airframe is using a basswood wing I had carved when I was going to build a B speed with Santo- the wing layout is elliptical - derived from the Dizzy Bee ( I think) - not sure how many sq in - perhaps I could make up a profile fuselage similar to Scat Rat style and use that wing if original Scat Rat wing is too large? I would stick with Fox35 stunt for power.

Double Deuce · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2011, 07:29:19 PM »

You may want to check www.doov.com for line rake info.

Double Deuce

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #8 on:** October 26, 2011, 10:13:59 PM »

You can download "Line III" here: http://www.stunthanger.com/temp/LineIIISetup.exe

Be sure to fill in the blanks correctly. About 75mph for the speed, with a Fox .35 stunt. The link Double Duce posted also has a calculator on it that should work fine. I think that one might be Pete Soule's original calculator? Just be sure to get the leadout guide as close to inline to the body of the Torque Unit as you can manage, i.e., not just in line with the button. You don't want to mechanically bind the tubes. If you need to up the rotation speed, cut the line shorter or maybe you can bolt in a combat later? Don't worry about rake angle being a bit off. You need to figure out line diameter and length you'll use, what you model's semi-span is, estimate weight, etc., to run the program. Getting it to fly pretty tangent to the circle will help get the speed up to what you want.

I'm not sure if a Fox .35 stunt would go fast enough to get a Dizzy B wing into the air...I would stick with the Skat Rat, but would not use more than about 2 sq. in. of elevator area. Email or PM me if you need help to make it work.

Steve

Double Deuce · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:57:11 AM »

The numbers used in the doov.com rake calculator were "borrowed" from many sources. Think this is currently called "research" rather than plagerism. It all started with Larrobee's 50's papers on a Mac 60 speed plane's wires, a lot came from the writings of Netzeband in American Modeler and in the CL Gazette Doc Jackson printed for several years. Have heared several conflicting stories as to where Wild Bill's data came from and will not go any farther down that track. Discussions with Pete added some other pieces. And just some plain Cajun thinking(?) added some more. I know it has one more point of data that it uses that the others do not. Also, I am a "victim" of the Louisiana Schools, so I have to beat numbers into submission.

Planes built to these numbers currently hold the Class A speed record, the 21 Proto record, the 21 sport record, and the 1/2 A proto record.

I have never said these numbers were the gospel, only a place to start. The tweaking be up to you. They are offered as a suggestion. If better data is available elsewhere, use it. The real answer will probably lie(lay?) somewhere around the average of the several calculators available.

My concern for line rake centers more on tank performance than it does on vehicle performance. I use vehicle here as I also use these numbers in tether car setup. Line rake calculations will only assess line data, not how the airplane behaves aerodynamically. Other inputs to how the plane flies may be present. Use the numbers wisely, do not bet the farm on them.

For a trainer type, I would just be sure some rake rearward exists so take off will not be an issue. The line will probably be shortened as experience is acquired.

Double Deuce

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2011, 07:11:43 PM »

I finally realized who Double Deuce is.

I have met Bill Husted, but not Luke Roy. I'm relieved that Luke didn't chop me up. I had seen his leadout position calculator before...recognized the P-40...it was years ago. Hence the thought that it might be Pete's.

I wish there was a current source of good speed engines and parts. Fun stuff. Stunt is getting that way, too. Maybe another generation, and it will be all done and gone.

Steve

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2011, 09:00:53 PM »

200 with the cars and planes = dbl duce.

Double Deuce · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2011, 09:05:10 PM »

Hold on here a minute. All the time Bill and I were flying, he was the bad guy and I was the quiet one. Now, too many years down the line, suddenly I am the bad guy. Think Husted is plotting against me. Will have to look into this.

The website actually belongs to one of my ex-students who was interested in learning the HTML language and asked if I had any data he could use as practice pieces, so I fixed him up. Blame the P-40 and the alligator on him. He said those were the closest to the airplane/Cajun connection that he could find.

The Double Deuce thing came about because of being the only person to run over 200 in planes and in cars. Still sorta proud of that. Always thought Frank Garzon would do it but his health failed too soon. Now, maybe Glen Dye will do it.

I still have an interest in the speed program but have pretty well ended any competition flying due to some serious philosophical differences with the alleged powers that think they be in NASS and at AMA. The last round of rules changes that occurred for no apparent reason left me very cold. Maybe, just maybe, a new round of NASS officers will come on board and bring things around. Doubt it, though.

In the meantime, enjoy.

DD

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2011, 12:11:12 PM »

Guys,
This whole "Rat with a Fox35" no gear type ships sounds like it could be fun for all. How about 65" lines (so the rotational speed is manageable for us 30yr olds with 30 yrs experience), 5% fuel, some typical "rat" wing area, tongue muffler and metal suction tank. Could be fun.

Best, DennisT

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2011, 04:50:36 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on October 28, 2011, 12:11:12 PM

Guys,
This whole "Rat with a Fox35" no gear type ships sounds like it could be fun for all. How about 65" lines (so the rotational speed is manageable for us 30yr olds with 30 yrs experience), 5% fuel, some typical "rat" wing area, tongue muffler and metal suction tank. Could be fun.

Best, DennisT

No! Fox .35 stunts are barely useful stunt engines, terrible racing engines, and would be really poor speed engines.
There are several 2-line speed events that IMO should be Beginner classes, and Experts should have their own version of those events, using monoline. Monoline is (IMO) much safer for the higher speeds that Experts are likely to manage. F2A should be monoline too, but we'll never convince the French of that.

Steve

Patrick Hempel · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2011, 01:28:03 PM »

I attached a pic of an example trainer rat, able to fly two and one line you can't see the belcrank in this pic.
the monoline unit is a homemade H&R type unit.

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2012, 09:58:43 AM »

DD,

Miss seeing you at Whittier. Your opinion about recent unnecessary rules changes can't be worse than mine,
but the trick is to beat them at their own game. Come on down. and we'll discuss B 36s.

Lyle, are you located in SoCal?

Best, Will Stewart

Double Deuce · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2012, 01:18:14 PM »

Will

When we get some sense into the rules and the rules are followed, maybe. I really doubt anything will change due to the amount of apathy existing in the alleged speed fliers of the day.

Would like to talk about the old B-36 days though.

Thanks for the invite.

Keep sticking it in their ear.

Luke

Author Topic: Monoline trainer (Read 1859 times)

Lyle Spiegel

Monoline trainer

Dennis Toth

Re: Monoline trainer

Steve Helmick

Re: Monoline trainer

Lyle Spiegel

Re: Monoline trainer

Steve Helmick

Re: Monoline trainer

Thomas Wilk

Re: Monoline trainer

Lyle Spiegel

Re: Monoline trainer

Double Deuce

Re: Monoline trainer

Steve Helmick

Re: Monoline trainer

Double Deuce

Re: Monoline trainer

Steve Helmick

Re: Monoline trainer

Joey Mathison 9806

Re: Monoline trainer

Double Deuce

Re: Monoline trainer

Dennis Toth

Re: Monoline trainer

Steve Helmick

Re: Monoline trainer

Patrick Hempel

Re: Monoline trainer

dynasoar1948

Re: Monoline trainer

Double Deuce

Re: Monoline trainer