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Author Topic: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?  (Read 557 times)

Online Dave Hull

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Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« on: October 03, 2018, 12:54:25 AM »
Guys, I have not flown any monoline before. What is out there for a 1/2A monoline handle that works with a "stunt" setup? I got the gizmo that goes in the plane from a friend, and need to know what handle and line it would take to make it work. The gizmo takes 4 turns to go from stop to stop.

I can make some stuff by hand, but do not have a machine shop....

I was thinking along the lines of an .049 in a solid/sheet airframe to learn how and to prove out any components. This would seem to suggest something like 35 - 42 feet of maybe .012 wire? And I was cautioned that the wire has to be very straight--no bows or bends.

Any suggestions?

McSlow



Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 10:49:21 PM »
one handle fits all .there is only 2 handles the good one has bearings in it and the  cheaper one has  bushings

I fly my 1/2 A on 42 ft of .016 wire
rad racer

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2018, 02:22:49 AM »
Thanks, Bob.

Do you need the .016 to keep it from winding up too much? Seems kind of heavy for 1/2A.

About the two different handles, who made these? Is there a photo anywhere that you know of? So far, all I have seen is a photo of an old Stanzel unit.

http://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/1/1114/15/vintage-stanzel-mono-line-handle_1_84441460f269e25d763f47f87334fb0c.jpg

The control unit I have is not exactly like this one, but pretty similar. The one in this photo doesn't look like the cam follower is engaged? Like the cam doesn't have end of travel stops and the bellcrank has fallen out and is sitting ~180 degrees from normal?

I remember seeing a Stanzel unit once, and it looked like the "worm" was made by twisting two piano wires together. Correct?

McSlow

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2018, 07:59:17 AM »
The twisters are either Stanzel O.E.M. or cottage industry copies of the Stanzel design. They were made in both RH twist and LH twist, as were the control units. Clockwise flyers used the LH twist. As RAD said there was both a plain bearing (budget offering) and the ball thrust version. You want the ball thrust type. You'll have to shake the trees and kick over some rocks to find one. Everyone I know guards them with their life.

As for the bellcrank not engaging the cam in the photo you referenced, that is normal. The bellcrank was shipped loose and had to be installed after the unit was fixed to the wing. The cam is cut with end stops. That is a Speedmaster control unit. The Stuntmaster control unit mounted with a stud through the fuselage of the plane.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 08:40:58 AM by Bob Heywood »
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2018, 08:03:43 AM »
For light use the fishing pole grip works OK but the speed crowd quickly replaced them with a better handle. This is a Speedmaster (no connection to Stanzel) aftermarket part.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2018, 08:13:37 AM »
O.E.M. Stanzel wire. The speed guys quickly reached levels of performance that overstressed the Stanzel method. Follow the guide lines in the AMA rules for line construction.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2018, 08:27:18 AM »
Control units. The spiral coil unit is the original design Monoline unit. The other pic shows an ABC Stuntmaster. There was also a 1/A Stuntmaster. Stuntmasters have a longer cam allowing more stroke for the bellcrank than the Speedmasters.

I actually learned Monoline flying a Ringmaster fitted with one of the spiral coil units. Worked just fine.

As for the wire size, it needs to be large enough to transmit sufficient torque from the twister to the plane control unit. When maneuvering you will actually twist the wire several times more than the plane unit turns. It's a 42 ft long torsion spring.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2018, 08:30:48 AM »
There have been attempts to replace the tried & true Stanzel twister. Geared handles work but never found wide acceptance. They are an acquired taste. They won't work for what you want to do.
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2018, 09:31:22 AM »
Dave is your unit a  stunt unit..the wire needs to be thick enough to get full control before hitting the end of the handle unit

one of problems a beginner has is when in a panic they pull up on the unit bowing the  twist unit and then it is dead until u straighten it back out. that can be fun

I can let u use a standard handle unit until u don't use it any more then send me back whats left of it  #^ LL~
rad racer

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2018, 09:37:01 AM »
Dave more onfo. for a plane ,y ou want one that is a smooth flyer like an over size mouse racer.  you would be chasing a baby flight streak all over the sky
rad racer

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2018, 11:25:07 AM »
Me again 2 things to remember  .the line will be heavier than normal 2 lings so a little extra tip weight is good. 2nd remember u can still control the plane with a slack line,so don't panic (until it hits the ground LL~)
rad racer

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2018, 02:41:40 PM »
Ok, guys, lots of really good information here. Thanks!

Comparing my gizmo to the photos you provided, I can confirm that I have the Stuntmaster--which is what I was told by the guy that very generously gifted it to me. It looks like it is in new condition, with no issues. It has the 90 degree fuselage mount. (Bolt straight into a profile fuse.) I was advised to sweep the unit back about 5 degrees, so I was thinking of making a set of wedges along with a multi-hole line guide. That would make it easy to trim.

It has a pretty small button on it. Not sure it's going to easily handle the size monoline you are suggesting. Will have to make up a sample termination and try it.

Yeah, I figured finding a handle would be tough. The only challenging part would seem to be the spiral wand part. Not sure if I can control the tension well enough to wind my own. Maybe put a chuck in the wood lathe and some fixtures to control the tension and hand-wind it....   What diameter is the wire used on these?

If I had the wand, I figure I could either mold, spiroform or carve the nut/slider piece.

From the photo, it looks like the spiral piece ends in a yoke that would contain a button on the line?

I suppose that I will find out how many turns the handle has to go for full elevator once I set everything up. The aeroloads on the elevator have enough uncertainty in calculation that doing much optimization would be idealistic.

I was thinking of a plankwing trainer. I just built one last year for two-line. A bit bigger than a Baby Skyray, which I think are wonderful for trainers. Anyway, the new one is a bit bigger, actually has an airfoil and flies really well. In fact, I need to detune it a bit before using for beginners. But if the monoline needs to be pretty large diameter, then I might want to increase the size again....

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2018, 03:04:44 PM »
one more,,,, the speed handle is not good for sport and learning  when u try to direct the plane it swivels and u loose feel.  with a speed ship it pulls enough to keep it straight
rad racer

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2018, 05:34:45 PM »
The twister is formed from two (2) pieces of 0.0625 music wire. Basic dimensions are shown in the attached photos.

The plastic knob holds this little piece of brass, 0.375 square, that has a sort of figure 8 hole. It's like two holes drilled so they overlap. If you lay it out you will see two tangs that engage the spiral of the twist. It's harder to describe in words than it is to make.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 05:42:54 PM »
The flying wire slips into the formed piece at the end of the twister. Stanzel supplied a formed solder-ferrule with their wire sets that slipped into the piece on the end of the twister. Their solder-ferrule was wound from music wire. Current AMA rules for making the line termination is different. As I said in one of my earlier responses the Stanzel method started failing as the big engine speed planes got going. For your purposes the Stanzel approach will work just fine.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2018, 05:53:47 PM »
Stuntmaster instructions. If you would like a better copy PM me your address and I'll send one.
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Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2018, 08:26:53 PM »
This is great stuff!  I will no doubt have more questions once I can study all of this.

The copies are plenty legible, thanks, Bob.

Right now, my only question is about the brass plate trapped on the twister. I thought it was a metal surface for the thrust bearing to ride on, thereby "beefing up" the plastic handle. But that doesn't explain why it has the bi-lobed hole, which would appear to act like a "nut."  But that would cause the twister to move in and out of the handle. If it does that, then I don't see how a thrust bearing does any good. So maybe I am looking at two different configurations? Either a thrust bearing and the twister does not stroke in and out, or the brass nut and it does?

The info on stunt handle vs. speed handle seems a bit contradictory at first glance. The Stanzel instructions say you want the speed handle with the bearing for stunt. RAD is saying you don't want it because it has a swivel?  Seems like for a straight and level trainer, the plain one would work. Then, if all goes well, and you move the pushrod in on the elevator, you might benefit from the bearing type?

The fact that the twister wire size is .062 is a bit daunting to consider making it. It would take some serious forces to wrap it as tight as the pictures show. Hmmmmm.

I will keep in mind that the unit has to be pointed at the airplane to work (and to keep from damaging things.)

Thanks tons, guys!

McDivot

PS--I sent you a picture of the last trainer I made, RAD. I was thinking of something like it for monoline.

PPS--Gotta get back out to the shop to finish the trim stripes on a Legacy and get it off my bench. The thing is huge.....  Then I will read up on all the great stuff you guys are sending

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2018, 09:16:13 PM »
1) RAD was talking about the actual handle or grip, the part the pilot holds, not the twister itself. The ball thrust bearing twister is the way to go. Line tension loads the system and the ball thrust bearing takes the load. At 200 mph my D pulled 100 lbs.

2) The little brass part is in the red knob shown mid-stroke in the photo of the twister unit. The pilot holds the grip and pulls the knob toward his body for UP and pushes the knob away for DN. It does act like a nut. The twister only spins one way or the other it doesn't move in or out. Make sense?

P.S. You are right, it does take some stiff, rugged tooling to make the twister. The tension must be controlled to obtain the correct pitch without having the whole thing end up like a blown rubber motor.
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Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2018, 02:17:14 AM »
Bobs,

Ok, still making progress here.

If the square brass plate is part of the moving red knob, that makes perfect sense. Wouldn't even need to "thread" the inside of the knob if the plate is sized close.

Making that twisted wire pair looks challenging. With a metal lathe I can see how to do it. With the wood lathe that I have, I would need to make fixtures for travel advance and tensioning. Best to go play with some soft wire and see if my concept works at all. For 1/2A sport flying, I could make the thing out of bailing wire. They pull less than a pound. Biggest issue would likely be bending the thing during handling or if I forgot it doesn't work like a fishing pole. (That is what RAD is afraid of. He's seen me fly before....)

Thrust bearing makes sense. Your description is clear. Should be easy to come up with a thrust bearing.

Not sure how much feel this whole setup is supposed to give the pilot. Probably nothing like what he gets with 2-line rigs. Still, I'm worrying about fits and friction if the twister isn't precise.

I'll let you know if I make any progress. If anyone has a stash of twisters, I'd sure be interested.....   Hen's teeth, you said?

Divot McSlow


Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2018, 05:57:50 AM »
Gold plated hen's teeth.

Years ago Stanzel offered a $1000 bounty for anyone winning the Walker Cup with Mono-Line. Never happened.

Chris Sackett and Marty Higgs play around with Mono-Line stunters. There may be something on the Flying Lines web site showing what they do.

Check this out:
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2018, 06:41:51 AM »
Dale Kirn article 1958 Air Trails Model Annual...
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2018, 07:51:17 AM »
Dave, read reply #8
rad racer

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2018, 03:56:47 PM »
Gotcha, Bob. I just dislike begging, borrowing and stealing everyone else's equipment. If I can't come up with one, I guess I will need to take you up on your very kind offer.

I kind of cringe thinking about shipping it across country. I once bought a sailplane kit that shipped via UPS. When I got it, they had folded it in half to make the box shorter...but the hardware was still good....

McDivot

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2018, 08:23:32 AM »
can put it in a PVC tube
rad racer

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2018, 09:12:10 PM »
RAD Bob,

The Duly took pity on me and loaned me two handles today. I didn't know he had any...since he has concentrated on the Sport 21 event. (He bought real engines for his, so he whupped my ancient first lot CS. My only claim to fame there was that after trying to take off out of Newton's post-type dolly and busting up a prop each attempt, I made me a righteous mousetrap dolly based off Glen Lee plans. Worked every time. Bad news there is that every attempt got a time--and they were all slow, or slower. Kind of like dumb and dumber. Might have been better off with my Clown racer....)

Anyway, one handle looks full zoot for anything you'd care to hook it up to. The aluminum D-handle has a two-axis swivel before it connects to the barber pole, and a big aluminum fitting for capturing the line end/button/loop or whatever goes on there. And a black plastic spool for the control inputs.

The other one is the rod and knob from one of the original Stanzel units. I'll probably make up a little wooden handle and refurbish that one, lite and tidy for my 1/2A sport flying experiment.

Again, thank you for your offer, and all your info and help. I will probably have more questions once I get started. But with what you and Bob H. have already provided, I think I can get this working....


Divot McSlow


PS--Just finished the first day of our Hi Johnson contest--Old Time and Classic. Tomorrow is carrier and PAMPA stunt. So if I can get a carrier plane hooked up and running, I get a chance to fly! Got a Hellcat with an FP40 and fixed leadouts for one, and a rebuilt MO-1 with a 36 for the other.


Online Dave Hull

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Re: Monoline Handle for 1/2A Trainer/Stunt?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2018, 01:42:58 AM »
Progress report on the monoline trainer:

Made up a wooden handle for the twisted wire gizmo. Seems to work. I just guesstimated the outline of the original "torpedo" and cut it out of birch.

Made up a .15-sized sport plane/trainer using stuff I had on hand. Leftovers from a 1/2A trainer wing became the horizontal and elevators, leftovers from a Buster wing became--you guessed it--a trainer wing. Scrounged landing gear from a departed Clown. Engine stolen from a Cosmic Wind. New fuselage and swoopy tail. I kind of like it. If it survives the initial training duties, I'll saw off the wing and put a built-up wing on it. Then we'll really get stunty.

Progress yesterday was bad. Another roll of MonoKote that only shrinks in one direction. How can that be? Major spanwise wrinkles that remainded untouched by all the heat gun could put out. Stripped it off the wing and just finished glassing the thing tonight. Will do the fuse tomorrow, God willing and the creek don't rise. Need to get set up properly to post a few pics from the phone.....  No time for that, gotta build a plane!

Will make up some lines next.

Divot McSlow


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