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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Speed Talk => Topic started by: Andrew Tinsley on February 16, 2014, 10:57:06 AM
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Hello Folks,
I have an interest in vintage speed and would like to try monoline. Are there any plans around to build the monoline units? I appreciate that monoline kit comes up on ebay and swopmeets, but I would prefer to build new if I can. Also can anyone tell me of a good monoline trainer, so I can practice before risking some of my old engines/
Many Thanks,
Andrew.
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Andrew - I'm in exactly the same position. I've had a couple of feelers out, but no luck so far. I don't want to use the cam/worm type Stanzel unit, there's a much simpler deisign which uses torque transmission in a simple unit in the model. Plus wouldn't be sure if there's any corrosion in an old Stanzel unit.
Anyone got the diagram and wire sizes for the simpler units? So simple and easy to make oneself.
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Monoline Trainer:
There is no exact answer to this question. I learned basic Monoline with a Fox 35 powered Ringmaster fitted with an early Stanzel Stuntmaster control unit. The most basic trainer to build I have seen was a Sig .15 Shoestring Goodyear racer. It was fast enough to be interesting but very forgiving.
Torque Unit:
H&R supplied the first torque units on a commercial basis so far as I know. Google "H&R Torque Unit". The attached picture is for a "B" size. They were about 3 -1/2" long. The outer tube was 1/8 brass. The inner tube was the corresponding telescoping size. The "T" bar was 1/8 drill rod. The control horn was soldered to the inner tube. There were 4 or 5 torque wires. I don't remember the gage. The torque wires all went through a hole drilled through the "T" bar and were wrapped and soldered to the outer tube. The Button has to fit the torque wires and the monoline wire. Check the AMA rule in the C/L Speed section for todays button requirements. So far I haven't found a dwg. I have seen other variations on these units so there is no exact formula for what works. Most were longer than the H&R unit.
These units are pretty simple to make. Failing all else, experiment a bit and make some to play with.
Avoid the Stanzel units. They worked in the day but had a couple of inherent weaknesses. The button is too small by today's standard and the wires could pull through the mount, with catastrophic results.
Hope this helps.
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Bob
Thanks for the lead and the photo. I will google as you suggest. I may need to come back to you for some clarification, I hope you don't mind that?
Hello Ian, seems as though I can't get one step ahead of you without you finding out what I am up to! Maybe we should join forces on a monoline experiment!
Regards,
Andrew.
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Andrew, here's the H&R instruction sheet and some closeup pictures. A long time ago I built and flew a Stanzel monoline aerobatic trainer. I found it relatively easy to fly including some basic stunts. I found it slower to react to control input than a two line ship. I also flew a B speed monoline model in competition (132 MPH). It really grooved well and required almost no control input except on takeoff, where the model needed leveling off after leaving the dolly. A quick blip was all it took and the model flew itself after that.That's been my experience.
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Hello Dennis,
I think I can understand how the H&R device works, However the talk of torque wires throws me somewhat. I assume that the inner tube that carries the "crank", can rotate in the outer tube. What I don't understand is how the inner tube is retained. I am also assuming that the torque wires retain the inner tube somehow and are anchored at the T bar end, or am I misunderstanding something important?
Thanks again,
Andrew.
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Hello Dennis,
I think I can understand how the H&R device works, However the talk of torque wires throws me somewhat. I assume that the inner tube that carries the "crank", can rotate in the outer tube. What I don't understand is how the inner tube is retained. I am also assuming that the torque wires retain the inner tube somehow and are anchored at the T bar end, or am I misunderstanding something important?
Thanks again,
Andrew.
Yes, the inner tube rotates with the horn, which is soldered to that tube and also to the torque wire (s) that exit the tube. What I don't know is the length of the inner tube. I suspect the inner tube may only be 3/8" or so, which allows for torque motion inside the outer tube, but please don't quote me on that.
Here's some additional information I can relate:
1) the small tube is crimped slightly around the torque wire and soldered just outside of the horn. That's what retains the inner tube.
2) there are three loops of torque wire around the button and all the way through the outer tube.
3) The two ends of the torque wire that exit at the T-Bar end are wrapped around the anchor post and also the wrapping continues around the outer tube for approximately 3/16".
4) The anchor post is 1/8" OD music wire, 3/4" long.
5) The overall length of my unit is 3 5/8".
I'm definitely not an artist but this diagram may help clarify things. The inner and outer brass tubes are not shown for clarity.
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Hopefully I have attached a pdf of a sketch I did some years ago. This is the torque unit I use for fast jet models. Coach Kent showed me how to make them. For an I/C engine installation I would use a steel crossbar. I use 18 thou wire for the jets and these are regularly pulled to over 140lbs with no problem. For lighter models use lighter wire, say 14 thou for 21/29 size. The only real thing to take care of is soldering the control arm and inner tube to the torque wires properly. If you make a dry joint there it can be hard to spot and although you are twisting the wire the arm will not respond properly. you might also get flutter.
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Dick, you are a much better artist than I am. Thanks for the info.
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Dick and Dennis,
Thank you both for clarifying the way the H&R system works. Good information in both sketches. there is certainly enough for me to make an H&R device for the aircraft.
Now how about the other end? Is a variation of the Stanzel archimedian screw type of system still used? Or have there been advances in this area too? As I said before the original Stanzel handle that I have seen, has been a nasty handle that is parallel to the control line. I would want to substitute a normal type of C/L handle, for the simple reason that my grip is too poor to be safe with anything less!
Regards,
Andrew.
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Andrew,
The Stanzel twister is still the way to go. You are correct in that the plastic grip needs to go. The last supplier, of which I'm aware, of a very nice machined handle was Bob Fogg. I would suggest that you check out the NASS web site ( www.clspeed.com ) and the Delphi C/L Speed Forum to see what might be available.
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Hello Bob,
Thanks for the link, I will take a look and see if anything is available. Otherwise I may start to make up something that will suit my disability better than a standard Stanzel unit.
Regards,
Andrew.