Anyone know the last CL speed records (MPH) held by ignition engine powered ships?

Best,   DennisT

It was the GHQ clocked at zero MPH.

I don't have a definitive answer to your query but in June of 1946 The Babcock's set a record of 113.5 mph with a Hornet powered Jughaid. I'm guessing they were still running gasoline. Ray Arden gave the world the glow plug in mid-1947. By then methanol fuel was being used and nitromethane was just showing up. By 1954 the C Speed record was 160 mph. Fuel was the real game changer.

Tether car guys stuck with ignition for a long time. A series of controlled tests concluded that a good ignition set-up was equal to or marginally superior to the glow plug. But, the hassles with ignition turned things in favor of glow. Even today there are some tether car guys in Europe fooling around with modern technology ignition systems. With the glow plug the ignition timing is determined by air/fuel ratio and compression. With ignition it is possible to decouple the timing from other variables and set a precise value.

Perhaps someday...

Bob,
What an informative reply. THANK YOU!

Quote from: Bob Heywood on July 26, 2025, 06:47:14 PM
I don't have a definitive answer to your query but in June of 1946 The Babcock's set a record of 113.5 mph with a Hornet powered Jughaid. I'm guessing they were still running gasoline. Ray Arden gave the world the glow plug in mid-1947. By then methanol fuel was being used and nitromethane was just showing up. By 1954 the C Speed record was 160 mph. Fuel was the real game changer.

Tether car guys stuck with ignition for a long time. A series of controlled tests concluded that a good ignition set-up was equal to or marginally superior to the glow plug. But, the hassles with ignition turned things in favor of glow. Even today there are some tether car guys in Europe fooling around with modern technology ignition systems. With the glow plug the ignition timing is determined by air/fuel ratio and compression. With ignition it is possible to decouple the timing from other variables and set a precise value.

Perhaps someday...

I found another ship Sizzler for a Hornet 60 that also did 114+. Looking at the plans it is a challenge to build and fit in all the ignition parts and fuel. They didn't mention the fuel for this ship but did say to use clear dope to fuel proof against "hot fuel" which is likely methanal based. Could be fun for Old Time Speed.

Best, DennisT

Dennis, I think I have a pretty solid answer to your question. In fact, it was right under my nose. Just had to put 2 and 2 together.

Attached is a copy of the program for my club's very first model contest. The Club was formed in February 1947 and ran the meet in August. All of the then current AMA Speed Records are listed on the cover. This meet and the 1947 Minneapolis AMA Nationals ran on the same dates. Ray Arden only started handing out glow plugs at the NATS and didn't actually start advertising and selling until September. So the records listed are all ignition era. Based on these speeds fuel was coming. One of the "transition" fuel blends I found was 35% white gas, 25% castor oil, 20% nitroethane, 10% ether, and 10% turpentine. After the plug began to be widely distributed fuel consisting of 3 parts methanol, 2 parts castor oil, and 3 parts nitromethane was kind of the standard.

Just a couple more details to put things in perspective. Jim Walker started selling the Fireball in late 1939 or early 1940. Line control was not written into the AMA Competition Regulations until 1944. There were Speed classes and Stunt. Harold DeBolt set a C Speed record of 95 mph with a Super Cyclone powered Speedwagon. For 1946 the rules were changed and for some reason Speed ended up with six classes. It apparently was not a popular change so clubs like the Buzzards combined classes and only ran four. I think the change only lasted a couple of years and reverted back. The other thing about the first rules was the requirement for a minimum wing area based on the engine size. As a result the first Speedwagon had a 200 sq. in. wing. That quickly went away also.

So, the glow plug became firmly entrenched, engines started being cowled in, and Nitro was king. The next two game changers were mag pans and Mono-Line. But, that's for another day.     

Good stuff Bob. I found another Old Time ignition ship the White Comet designed for a McCoy 49 to 60. Similar design to the Sizzler - round fuse. They used a lot of elevator on those ships.

Best,   DennisT

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 28, 2025, 10:18:02 AM
Good stuff Bob. I found another Old Time ignition ship the White Comet designed for a McCoy 49 to 60. Similar design to the Sizzler - round fuse. They used a lot of elevator on those ships.

Best,   DennisT

    And a lot of these were hand launched!! If someone can offer a hint to a time line, I'll look through some old magazines on when the first take off dollies came into use. I know I've seen pics of speed ships being hand launched!!
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

A good friend of mine (and mentor as a kid) was John Kukon from Fords,NJ (we were in the Perth Amboy MAC) always had his speed ships hand launched by his father. I did this the first time I flew speed with an old half Magnum (fuse/cowl/pan)/half wood (Wing and tail) Dooling 29 ship. The trick was to hold a little bit of down elevator as it was launched (you needed someone who was good a darts to give a hard but flat launch). Because most of the designs had the wing mounted to the upper shell you had to counter-act the upward pitching moment of the engine around the high wing mount. Once it got over the hump you neutralized the controls and away you went.

Best,    DennisT

Quote from: Dan McEntee on July 28, 2025, 12:48:06 PM
    And a lot of these were hand launched!! If someone can offer a hint to a time line, I'll look through some old magazines on when the first take off dollies came into use. I know I've seen pics of speed ships being hand launched!!
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

Dan, Ernie Babcock published Jughaid in the December 1946 Air Trails Pictorial. All of the details required to build a dolly are on the plan.

Hand launching was not allowed in the beginning. For his 1944 record DeBolt used a simple retracting arrangement. The gear did not extend for landing but some of the wheel was exposed and allowed the model to land on them.

The 1946 rules covered launching as follows:

"Launching.  Models shall take off from the floor, ground, or runway under their own power. Take-off gear may be fixed, removable, retractable or droppable. Removable take-off gear includes dollies, or any similar device, but it shall remain on the ground. Any take-off gear which does not fall free of the model before it becomes airborne, including dropoff gear operated by delayed action, shall be provided with a safety line to prevent hazard to spectators."

One more from the 1954 NATS. It's not obvious but Al always flew clockwise.

In the 70's Al and Carl Dodge teamed to build a C Speed intended to make a run at the F.A.I. 10cc world record. The rules required specific wing loading numbers so the plane was much larger than typical. I watched them hand launching at one of the Junior Air Races at Cleveland. No fuss. It looked like a stunter. Carl still has the plane.

up until the late 50,s,early 60,s the Ohio bunch hand launched all their speed ships

Quote from: Bob Heywood on July 26, 2025, 06:47:14 PM
I don't have a definitive answer to your query but in June of 1946 The Babcock's set a record of 113.5 mph with a Hornet powered Jughaid.

Would those people be the "Jack Babcock" and his son from Hornell, NY?  had a hobby shop there and it was a wonderland to me as a kid !

TIA

Cheers

Warren Wagner

Quote from: Warren Wagner on July 28, 2025, 04:20:17 PM

Quote from: Bob Heywood on July 26, 2025, 06:47:14 PM
I don't have a definitive answer to your query but in June of 1946 The Babcock's set a record of 113.5 mph with a Hornet powered Jughaid.

Would those people be the "Jack Babcock" and his son from Hornell, NY?  had a hobby shop there and it was a wonderland to me as a kid !

TIA

Cheers

Warren Wagner

It's Ernest Babcock and Ernest Jr. Junior did all of the flying. He won the Grand Champion award at a Mirror Meet flying all of the Speed classes. Besides a very impressive trophy, he took home a brand new Ercoupe airplane.

Speaking of dolly's, here is a good drawing of a "mouse trap" dolly used by Bob Lauderdale.

Best,  DennisT

i believe the original C Hell Razer showed an ignition motor in it