Author Topic: fox 35 speed (Read 8763 times)

bob whitney · « **on:** October 27, 2016, 09:09:20 PM »

I know that that the fox 35 stunt speed rules have changed as to what we can do. how about an up date on the new engine rules

also a better idea of the rules for the new stunt speed event

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2016, 06:34:24 AM »

Rules change?? New one on me.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2016, 07:42:30 AM »

As far as The Brodak is concerned, assuming my proposal is approved by management:

The Fox 35 Speed Event will continue to use whatever the Saint Louis Event uses.

There will be an additional "sportsman stock engine" offered on an either/or basis with existing event. This event will exclude anyone who flys the open event or who has bettered 90 MPH. This is consistant with Brodak policy in Clown and Foxberg racing.

The new class will allow a variety of stock stunt engines and require aerobatic models with airfoil wings (built up or foam). In addition, the new event will be 7 laps from a flying start. This will eliminate the need to take another attempt if the engine stutters during acceleration and also the need to build an extra-light model for acceleration. The flying start will result in higher speeds (maybe 75 vs 70 MPH) and give the contestants a fair chance a the average speed award. The intent is to allow participation without building special model.

bob whitney · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2016, 08:12:59 PM »

so u are saying that as long as the plane can do a lazy 8 and is on suction it is legal as long as it has a stunt 35 in it for stunt 35 ??

Paul Smith · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2016, 09:12:29 PM »

I doesn't matter to you. You're in the big boy class. Use what you chose.

bob whitney · « **Reply #5 on:** November 02, 2016, 04:59:59 PM »

but it dose matter to me ,one of my friends wants to enter the stock class

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2016, 06:35:29 AM »

John Moll has been working a revision to the rules for Fox 35 speed. He is currently having some the NASS guys go thru them and then we will get them posted on the Lafayette Esquadrille website. The rules changes tighten up what mods you can do to the engine.

Fred

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2016, 08:58:55 AM »

The rules changes tighten up what mods you can do to the engine.

Fred
[/quote]
Can't wait to here this one

Motorman · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2016, 12:10:26 PM »

I told you guys a long time ago you shouldn't leave the rules wide open and you told me to mind my own business. Now the Genie is let out of the bottle and you're furiously back peddling. I think that's funny as hell.

MM

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2016, 10:32:52 AM »

At Middlesex NJ were are leaving the Fox Speed rules the same as last year and the guys are having a lot of fun with it. We like using the KISS principle.
Al

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2016, 12:33:16 PM »

Agreed

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2016, 08:07:45 PM »

It was stated right from the very beginning that this was intended to be an entry level event, to get people interested in trying a bit of speed flying with an inexpensive engine that was common to find. The rules were quite simple, but as I have said in other threads, it's gone the way of other "entry level" events and has been taken over by experts with much modified engines. I tried to caution John at first to include some language right from the start to limit modifications and rule out any kind of pipe but they went with what they had. It should run in such a manor as, you get handed an engine and told, "That's all you get and you can't add anything else." There are plenty of other classes to get your kicks from machining and modifying engines for top speed. So it will be nice if this one event can be kept "pure' so to speak, and cater to the entrants that it was intended for. As the newbies and beginners learn and progress in this event, they may branch out into some of the others. That is how you get a solid participant base, and your overall numbers grow, something that all disciplines in the hobby need, so why would you do anything to discourage growth?
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

john e. holliday · « **Reply #12 on:** December 07, 2016, 10:03:46 AM »

A few simple words like was used for Fox racing, box stock except allowed use of socket head screw instead of the phillips junk. I remember Billy Bischoff disqualifying his self after pulling back plate off a Fox he had bought off some one. Who ever it was had cleaned up all the sharp edges inside the case. But, I guess there are guys who will buy a bunch of them and start fitting parts. With out modifications I have had a couple of Fox's that would turn the 15,000 rpm with nitro.

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2016, 10:52:03 AM »

why the geezerly rant?
There is a stock class now and besides, the winner at Brodak used all Fox parts. He didn't make a thing......he just kept the stupid engine from blowing up right then. Are y'all too silly to understand how to reset timing to 30 deg opening and 65 deg closing? It's information that has been around for over 60 years. If you run a Fox without cleaning it, you will be putting chunks of aluminum through the liner.....EVERYONE knows that.

Here is what Tom Shafer wrote to me after Brodak. This is what speed flying is.

Ken. So far I had one con rod break. I don't like to stand in front while running. Since you are pressing me, while all of the parts are from Fox .35. not all are Fox Stunt parts. All of the Fox .35 and .36 parts swap right in so there are lots of possibilities and I have tried many of them!

All of the machinists lost, the tinker guy won.

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2016, 12:11:16 PM »

What about the plane? Some guys are using team racing planes built by experts that are hard to build, but have just as much to do with the speed as the engine. Are you gong to make it Jr Flite Streak only to keep that part equal? After all, you're calling it entry level.
Al

Dane Martin · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2016, 05:01:04 PM »

I probably shouldn't chime in, as I probably will not fly fox 35 speed. But maybe I'll chime in with the reasoning.
I am a beginner. I've flown in several contests now, and I have yet to worry about placings. As long as I get faster each contest, I feel I'm progressing.
But I'm not understanding why there needs to be so many rules and classifications in this? Box stock or modified. Two separate classes of fox 35.but for entry level, there's 1/2A proto, 21 SS and F40. My favorite and cheapest event to get into so far is sport jet.
Why the limitations? Is this meant to be a stock car situation where it's a who can fly fastest on the same equipment? As a green horn, I say let it rip. I'll figure out how to catch up!

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2016, 07:54:50 AM »

I have found it hard not to reply on this one and had figured to save it until the 'new and improved' rules are posted. But, since my name has been mentioned, here are a few comments. I am a pretty active c/l enthusiast who falls near the center of active fliers demographically speaking. In other words, somewhat geezerish and not interested in flying 'real' speed events where speeds may reach 150+. As stated last year, I still have my Form 40 plane and did quite well with it here in the northeast and at several Nationals but can't imagine going into the pylon with it now. So. When the Fox speed rules and pictures were posted it got my attention! A speed class that would allow freedom of thought in an effort to 'achieve a goal' and, because of the limits of the Fox crankcase, would not be too fast no matter what you could do with it. My results did not come automatically. There was lots of testing on the bench and in the air. Also a number of 'sacrificial' parts. It was fun because I had to work at it. Kind of like speed flying in 'The Good Old Days'. A few of our pals also built planes and motors that are working well but still need a bit of tuning. We are having fun.
Some fellows would rather just show up and fly so, maybe, two levels would be appropriate. All for now, TS

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2016, 02:15:54 PM »

Since brother Dane and I have distinctly different takes on competing--- I feel a comment from MY perspective:...Older guy

Too Long absent from 70s To early 2000s---- a LOT has changed and A LOT has NOT--- so much

As a teen ager I was significantly intimidated by the, THEN, state of the ART competition in the Oakland Bay Area stunt and combat events

Today I am exponentially intimidated... not so much from the current level of equipment (or implied costs) ----BUT the decades of skills needed to competently complete....the Field is NOT high school kids any more

Let me explain a tad...as a kid I would not have even known or cared about the running of the event...logistics.... or anything other than me having fun and trying to be where I needed to be at the right time....and hopefully kicking my neighbor Johnny's butt...(Johnny's dad bought him the best stuff)(( I threw a 145 customer paper route 7 days a week)

Today , after a lifetime of managing a LOT of things where logistics, timing, efficiency, and safety are major concerns... well these notions force me to think of MY impact on an otherwise well run event -WITH EXPERTS- where I might be THAT GUY...that screwed it all up

I tend to think a lot of folks view ENTRY level events as a come on for YOUNGER entrants ...and I suppose that is a laudable goal

And IF that was or is the true intent...then stupid simple and cheap should be the focus...expecting the entrant to gain skill, confidence, and fun...hopefully to advance to the more stringent events

I have no fear, as a geezer, entering an event with 8~15 year old (probably better than I ) entrants
I know that I would not be as prone to drive 500 miles to any event where I need to have some semblance of an A game due to rules and local entrants with mad skills

I will add a example... just me...
Brother Dane is to be noted because he had the Huevos I did not have...and he drove two days to have his ass handed to him in front of his fiancee.... This is NOT a ding...Dane had a great time, as did his lady, and I know for a fact he got the best lessons on combat ever and a LOT of great advice and free equipment

Most of who he flew against were WORLD CLASS winners...fact,,,,, and amazingly Dane lasted MORE than 1 minute with them... I was truely amazed consider who he was in the circle with

James Mears annual combat memorial...Dane was total newby and did a great job of acquitting himself in the inevitable near instant kills.. by guys with decades of skill...I have been twice to this event, some 5 hr away, and would never dream of dragging out my meager equipment and very anemic skills

BUT---- if Bobby Mears had enough entry level guys (not just me) for a beginners level addition to the festivities and competition the weekend would be so much better for me

Back to Fox 35 speed...
My take is a simple set of rules where the engine is set as stock Fox only...specific fuel...specific prop...and ANY airframe
Open class would then allow (assuming still Fox speed) any engine mod, any fuel blend, any prop, and now a fixed airframe weight and dimension...

Dane Martin · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2016, 06:58:26 PM »

Thank you Fred. I've had my tail kicked many times this year! However, I've got cuts against some good guys now.
I'm understanding this more and more though. I don't know that beginners are the target market. I'd still think the 1/2A profile is good for kids and beginners. It's pretty easy to build, and easy to get engines.
I'm seeing this as a way for all pilots to be able to build something "bigger" and make it look nice, and be able to fly it without running like a maniac.

But, as with any contest, if it's not in the rules that usually means the persons founding the event hadn't thought of it. The rules kinda just need to be written up like those found in current successful classes, with the understanding that modifications will need to happen until it's to the liking of the majority, or everybody can just live with it.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2016, 01:12:03 PM »

Paul,
I never saw and answer to Bob's question about the need for the aircraft to do some type of maneuver? Is there going to be a wing area and thickness requirement? As building season is about to start in many places it would be good to know what one should be designing and building for the upcoming season.

Best, DennisT

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2016, 02:02:32 PM »

there is no requirement for wing area, type of model, span. if you can mount a Fox 35 stunt on a Cox PT-19 and survive that is legal. You do have to have at least one wheel for an ROG. The video below will show some of the kinds of models that were flown at that contest.

There is no maneuver, basically takeoff, fly 14 level laps and you are done.

Fred

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #21 on:** December 18, 2016, 06:12:21 AM »

I'm a little confused, is there a "stock" class of Fox 35 Speed that limits the engine to only stock Fox 35 engines with no restrictions on the airplane design? On a separate post for Brodak's there seems to be several "Fox 35" speed events all with vague rules. Would be good if one could know what we need to build to.

Best, DennisT

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #22 on:** December 18, 2016, 07:21:53 AM »

Here in St Louis we have one event, Fox 35 Speed which requires the Fox 35 Stunt engine (see updated rules), the rules have info on what engine modifications can be done. I can't speak for the Brodak contest on what categories they have. If the Brodak contest wants to do something different from what we have in the St Louis Fox 35 speed rules then they are allowed, but they must advertise the differences on the sanction if they say they are going to use the St Louis Fox 35 speed rules. Remember these are club rules so each club that wants to host a fox 35 speed event must decide if they want to follow the St Louis rules to the letter, or do something different.

Fred