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Author Topic: flying clown  (Read 2782 times)

Offline bob whitney

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flying clown
« on: May 18, 2018, 10:41:20 AM »
just checking to make sure that the flying clown is still legal for sport stunt speed as it was last year
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2018, 02:18:19 PM »
The Clown is still OK.  There are no airframe limits other than a functional landing gear and the ability to fly both ways.
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 06:11:37 AM »
Paul how many sq. inches is the Flying Clown?

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 07:21:30 AM »
Paul I just looked up in the Brodak catalogue the specs on the "flying clown". The plane only has 200 sq. inches of wing area. That's about the same as an average 1/2A model. Who in their right mind would put a .35 on a 1/2A sized model? I must be mistaken,but I thought the spirit and intent was to use "sport" type models.Looks like I better build something a lot smaller than a Brodak Shoestring to even be in the ball park. Am I wrong? Cheers,PhillySkip

Offline bob whitney

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 11:32:28 AM »
 Skip,  smaller is not always better ,. it is whats up front that counts. the plane that won last year was a 360 Sq IN Circus King with a bushing K&B 35 using a Rev Up 8x8 racing prop ( not a speed prop ). the engine seems  to be a freak .it was one of the last bushing slug piston engines K&B made before going to the ringed engine. it was pulled out of the arkives box and not run until the first flight at Brodaks.we had no idea that it would run like that . after getting back home I checked the timing and it was the same as the ringed engine but the ringed engine doesn't come close to it.
  it has been proven in speed that small is not always faster. FAI 15 speed ships are just as fast ,if not faster than our 15 A speed ships and sometimes easier to fly'they have twice the wing area.
  300 sq in seems to be the magic #. when fox burg first got started ,a Shoe string with a fox 35 was good for about 75 to 80 mph ,then they opened up the planes to any 300 sq in kit .someone found a short kit of a 300 in carrier plane with a 1 in thick wing and that was it for the ( sport planes) the problem was the 1 in thick wing.when they quit flying slow rat they were doing 120 MPH and pulling like hell .no one wanted to fly them any more .
  when they say sport planes it opens up a big Pandora's box.what is a sport plane ???I know this is a beginners event ,but I know I have a 300 sq in ,1 in thick super slow rat that with the right tank will do loops and fly inverted . to some with a K&B Green head 35 this would be a sport plane?? where do we draw the line??
  if you really want to make it a fun event do like Perky started out.everyone fly's and u add all the times ,divide by # of entries and who ever hits the average wins .
 before getting off of my box. if you are going to make them fly both ways than the entrant needs to be the pilot.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 04:05:01 PM by bob whitney »
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2018, 01:39:15 PM »
The Circus King at 360 Sqs is more in line with the spirit of the event IMHO. A 200 sq inch plane like the Flying Clown is a stretch.
I agree the entrant must be the pilot. Also, I read that you have to fly 7 laps inverted to "qualify" .I feel every flight should be 7 laps upright and 7 laps inverted to get scored....again just my opinion.

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2018, 02:41:28 PM »
My oldest Flying Clown racer uses the Nova Rossi .15 which is bigger, heavier and way more powerful than the Fox .35. Flys good!  Will it do a figure 8 or fly inverted. Uhhh.......never tried (thanks goodness) ;D  However quite sure it will if built with the Fox (or other legal motor) in mind.    TS

Offline bob whitney

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2018, 04:17:36 PM »
Ar first glance you would think the smaller plane would be less drag but it's the old weight Vs lift thing. A Clown with a big engine will be nose heavy and if you add tail weight to balance it you'll have too much total weight. The result of both is your plane will have to fly nose up to stay level and that's a real speed killer. Of course real speed planes are much smaller but they are so fast that they generate enough lift from a small wing. I think 300 sq. in. with a 36" span is the sweet spot for this event. Make it look like a Ringmaster and who could complain. If you can keep it light and still get it to balance you'll have a winner.

Is this like the engine that won last year?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/K-and-B-K-B-Stallion-35-35-Two-2-Stroke-Nitro-CL-Control-Line-Airplane-Engine/312074069432?hash=item48a91065b8:g:nDIAAOSwc3RakHy1

Motorman 8)  this engine has nice big crankshaft but no taper in the sleeve .in our test it was slower than the grean head, veco,or the OS
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2018, 04:52:19 PM »
In my opinion, a Flying Clown is undersize, but a Flying Clown with a stock Fox 35 Stunt took 2nd place last year.  Beaten only by a model that might be questioned- legal wise.

Third place went to a Foxberg racer with a Fox 35 Stunt, shortly after having won Sportsman Foxberg.  What could be legaler?

In this speed range, smallness is not a virtue.
Paul Smith

Offline bob whitney

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 06:54:30 PM »
  OK so lets question it. was it too big ?? the engine was a stock K&B bushing 35 from 1975.the prop was the same one used on the 2nd place plane if it was non legal Dave says he will bring the trophy back So under your rules wither it was legal or non legal  lets be done with it.  but don't leave it hanging
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 09:45:05 PM »
Hey guys I just want you all to know that I didn't "question" the Flying Clown to start some controversy .I was just kind of thinking out loud. I'm a newbie in these speed circles and just feel that "spirit and intent" is just as important as the hard and fast rules, if you get my drift.
I applaud Paul for spearheading this stuff as both this Sportsman Stunt Speed and the new Fun Carrier event are sure to bring smiles to everyone's face.

In truth, I'm not even thinking about what the other guys are going to run,I just am curious to see how fast I can get my plane to go.If I do well then great,if not I'll still have fun trying! Cheers,PhillySkip


 

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2018, 04:37:35 AM »
MM , Paul said no combat planes or flying wings.I'm thinking that putting the tank in the wing is pushing it IMHO

Offline BillLee

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2018, 06:15:36 AM »
I suspect, but don't know for sure, but based on Bob's description .....

K&B made the so-called "Greenhead" up until about 1961.

In 1961, the introduced the new design, the "Series 61" engine that  has the bolt-on front end with ball bearings that is still they standard design. The Series 61 35 was a steel piston/liner (whatever the material) aka known as a "slug" p/l. I believe the Series 61 was only available in 29 and 35 sizes.

In 1964, K&B introduced the "Series 64" which was the first of the Dykes-ring engines, but only as a 40. I don't think the 29 or 35 was made any longer.

K&B in the early 70's brought out the Dykes-ring 35 as a plain-bearing engine. Still a good motor but not the equal of the slug engine.

And so forth.

The early engines, the "slug" 35's, were very good running motors if properly broken in, easily equaling or bettering any of the competition. But they had a propensity to break crankshafts and HAD to be properly broken in. The old saw then was "Three K&Bs: One to fly, one in the mail back to K&B for repair, one in the mail back from them.". I ran them a lot in the early days after college and personally never broke one, but my friends had other experiences.

From Bob's description, I suspect he was using a slug 35.

Regards,

Bill
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 07:40:48 AM »
read reply #5
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 01:55:51 PM »
And he who finds it wins.  The way of the world.

This is a new virgin event, yet to be violated in unknown ways.

Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2018, 08:44:27 AM »
You should have a claimer rule. Anyone can buy the winners engine for $40. He won't need it anyway moving up to expert unless it's a Fox 35.

We're not that serious about this.

Those with the skills & tooling to make engines can do whatever they want in Perky & Fox 35 Stunt.
The Sportsman even is just a refuge for those who just want to build plane, power them with existing engines, and fly both ways.

Fun Carrier is similar:  You can use any throttled RC25 (or smaller)
I don't plan to look inside any engines unless the next contestant down demands it.

So we have two all-out events, and two hands-off events.  In my experience, Brodak Fun Flyers are more honest that motor sports guys in general.
Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 04:49:29 PM »
Yo Paul,I can't wait to try out the Fun Carrier,and see if I can go faster than last year with this year's Stunt Speed entry. I plan on a lot of testing once I get out to Brodaks.Cheers,PhillySkip

Offline Carl Cisneros

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Re: flying clown
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2018, 10:49:55 AM »
this is the k&b Series 61  35 that Bill is talking about guys.
totally illegal for sportsman speed. (ball raced crank)
the machined prop driver gives it away real quick.



Carl R Cisneros, Dist IV
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