Author Topic: Brodaks (Read 5729 times)

bob whitney · « **on:** August 08, 2017, 09:26:39 AM »

any word on what the new event or events will be at Brodaks next year??

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2017, 04:37:23 PM »

I'm leaning toward this, pending approval from highers:

Perky - no change.
Fox 35 Speed - no change.
Sportsman Speed - some tightening-up, including promotion of the winner to Expert.
LA-25 Sport Race - discontinued.

Fun Carrier - a new simplified participation carrier event for Thursday morning. This has received more positive feedback than several racing events that were discussed.

bob whitney · « **Reply #2 on:** August 14, 2017, 09:50:18 AM »

so tell us. how is this Fun carrier going to work?

?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #3 on:** August 14, 2017, 11:32:31 AM »

We're still working on it.

Basically, it will allow all equipment that's legal in NW40, plus any off-the-shelf throttled engines 25 and smaller.

No sliders, no left-handed rotation. Other that, no airframe rules.

Maximum 75 high and 15 low. I think capping only the high & leaving low wide open skews the event toward low.
And by the way, high will be from a flying NOT STANDING start. A fighter pilot doesn't care about the first half-mile, unless the carrier is under attack.

That's about it. Details to follow. 60' lines & 7 laps. Take off & land from the deck.

In future we need to discuss this in the Carrier section. This is the saw-a-dee message since it replaced a racing event.

Finally, this is all subject to acceptance by the CD & field owner.

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2017, 07:32:51 PM »

I'm curious about the Sportsman/Stunt speed event,please tell us more....PhillySkip

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2017, 06:27:45 AM »

The Sportsman Class was created due to customer response to the first running of Fox Stunt Speed in 2016. There were nine entries in 2016. The five with actual Fox Stunts in normal airplanes did 60 to 69 MPH. The four entries with fully modified engines in speed planes all did over 100 MPH. There was a 32 MPH gap between Sportsman and all-out.

So in 2017 I added a Sportsman Class and (with one exception) it worked well. The idea was to have a "participation" event where anybody could enter with existing stuff. Third place was a Brodak Foxberg racer and Second place was a Brodak Clown, both with Fox 35 Stunts in the middle 70's range. First went to a combat wing with a K&B (not greenhead) that maybe I should have disallowed, it went 92 MPH. The winner has been promoted to Expert.

For 2018 I looking at ways to strengthen the "sportsman" element. One rule will be to require 14 laps, with 7 being flown in each direction.
Another will be to simply list the permitted engines and eliminate the loophole "or any plain bearing stunt 35".

I can say this. The event is in for 2018 and everything that flew in 2017 is still legal with the exception of the winner. Like The Kentucky Derby, you can only win this event once.

bob whitney · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2017, 09:38:00 AM »

First off u don't even know which plane won. it was a 1953 full size PDQ Circus King with over 300 sq in wing and a 1978 plane bearing K&B 35

the 1954 WOW Flying wing with a K&B Green head placed 4th. but if u would like we will use Flying Clowns next year as we have at least 6 left overs from the good old clown racing days

to me a 35 powered flying clown is much less a stunt plane than either one of these. I can do the pattern with both of them but don't believe

the 35 powered clown can do the same Bob (RAD ) Whitney

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** August 18, 2017, 12:21:50 PM »

Now Bob, you're welcome to Perky & Fox 35 Speed. Just let the sportsmen be sportsmen. In this event, two expert events is all you can eat.

Have you ever suspected that I'm using reverse physiology?
When I invite you to enter, you don't always enter.
But when I try to keep you out, you always find a way to get in.

bob whitney · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2017, 03:34:45 PM »

I don't remember entering that event but I did give the 3rd place guys the prop off of Dave Hallas's winner to use and they moved up to 3rd, dose that disqualify them

Paul Smith · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2017, 04:33:20 PM »

Exactamundo, Johnny.,

Just hang in there.

Carl Cisneros · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2017, 10:04:16 PM »

1/2 the laps being flown reverse direction?

Well, that lets me out. I still can not fly inverted with out the ground coming up and smacking my plane.

Carl

Paul Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2017, 07:38:12 AM »

I think at least 100% of the people who attend Brodaks can fly both CCW & CW, or as we say, upside down and upside right.
Those that can't may employ a 2-way speed pilot.
I would propose to use the time each way, whether on the same flight or not.

Those who wish to use purpose-built speed equipment still have what they wanted, Perky & Fox. This is an event for non-engine builders.

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2017, 07:44:31 PM »

Thanks for commenting on this. I feel that in order really make this a true "Sportsman /Stunt" event that the final rules for the event need to be posted waaay in advance of the Brodak event so competitors like myself who are new to
a speed event have time to prepare a model for the event. Here are some of my suggestions for the aircraft.

All planes must be of conventional type profile or full bodied with two wheeled main landing gear
All planes must have at least 400 sq inches of wing area and 1 inch thickness at root.No combat planes or flying wings
All planes must weigh a minimum of 30 ounces
Competitor can use any prop they choose.
Engines must be a box stock Fox 35 Stunt engine

Here are my suggestions for the flying portion:
Before any plane is allowed to make a speed run the pilot must perform one inside loop,one outside loop,regular wing over,and one inverted lap.to satisfy the "Stunt" part of this event
Once the "stunts" are successfully completed then the pilot will have qualified for his/her speed run of 7 laps from a flying start. The pilot will be allowed 3 attempts to satisfy the flying requirements Once a plane has passed the "Stunt" portion no further demonstrations will be necessary,and the pilot can get his/her plane timed for subsequent speed runs.

Lastly, all fuel will be taken from a pump around.

Paul these are just my ideas ,tell me what you think....PhillySkip

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2017, 08:36:54 AM »

Then make the minimum so that they both can fly. I don't know the square inches of those two. Are their wings 1" at the root?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2017, 10:03:01 AM »

I don't plan to do that much inspection and possible disallowance.

I think a short list of engines and flying both ways will be enough rules for a participation event.

Along with excluding "experts" as pioneered by Phil Spillman and John Saunders in Brodak Foxberg & Clown.

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2017, 06:50:40 PM »

So what you're saying is that as long as the pilot can demonstrate flying his/her entry upright and inverted there is no "spec" except on the engine used,right?

Please publish the list of "legal" engines ASAP so that we can get started on "sourcing" an engine and building planes to fit these rules. Thanks,PhillySkip

bob whitney · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2017, 11:23:04 AM »

I just have to ask this. how can u eliminate someone from an event

and then change the rules for the event

Paul Smith · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2017, 01:39:28 PM »

Quote from: bob whitney on August 26, 2017, 11:23:04 AM

I just have to ask this. how can u eliminate someone from an event

and then change the rules for the event

1. Take a look a Brodak rules for Foxberg & Clown. They excluded me and several others who achieved certain scores in those events. I can still enter "expert" as is the case in Fox 35 Speed.

2. On the same theme, they have forcibly upgraded Stunt winners out of Intermediate & Advanced.

3. Is there anybody who would actually want to win "sportsman" twice in a row?

Carl Cisneros · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2017, 03:10:45 PM »

Then if that is the case, I can fly my Goldberg/Brodak Buster with McCoy 35 power. I don't own any Foxes.

Istill have to learn to fly inverted tho.

Carl

Paul Smith · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2017, 03:39:36 PM »

True - true - and true.

It shouldn't take eight months to learn to fly both ways. It's a lot of fun.

bob whitney · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2017, 06:31:41 PM »

DO WE HAVE A LIST OF ENGINES YET??

bob whitney · « **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2017, 11:05:23 AM »

My non engine sportsmen team mates are waiting to hear what hoops they will need to go through next year

??

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2017, 03:26:38 PM »

Paul, I too have had club members and others ask about the rules for the Brodak Sportsman .35 speed event. If you can specify the rules then guys can use the time to dream, scheme, build and learn how to operate the 'bombs' to best advantage. Thanks, TS

PS No, I'm not going to enter but would look forward to helping people if they ask

Paul Smith · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2017, 03:50:50 PM »

I'll get something in pretty soon. This is the basic outline:

Perky & Fox 35 - no change, unless the ruling authorities change their rules.

Sportsman: A short list of engines including the Fox Stunt and several of the old "blackfin" engines, K&B, OS, and McCoy. Do you know of many others?

LA-25 Racing dropped in favor of a new Fun Carrier event.

My event-running activity has been on the back burner due to good weather and a lot of flying.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2017, 06:50:29 AM »

I think most would rely on you to set the rules. Have you thought about the small case Johnson, Enya, OS .35S, the 'Big Block' McCoy. Others? TS

bob whitney · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2017, 07:55:48 AM »

thinking in what way,,, yea or nea

Paul Smith · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2017, 12:15:39 PM »

Quote from: C.T. Schaefer on October 24, 2017, 06:50:29 AM

I think most would rely on you to set the rules. Have you thought about the small case Johnson, Enya, OS .35S, the 'Big Block' McCoy. Others? TS

I'm thinking YES to Enya. I don't know of a "big case" McCoy, only the red head stunt McCoy.
No to all Supertiger, Johnson and Nelson engines.

I don't want to leave the door open to a killer engine that beats everybody by 15 MPH (again). We have Perky & Fox 35 for the all-out competitors. This is sportsman class.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2017, 03:13:06 PM »

That McCoy had a black head and a ring. After they sat on the shelves for a while you could buy them for about 7 bucks. Can't say more but they are out there. TS

Carl Cisneros · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2017, 10:37:40 PM »

Only McCoy 35's I have are teh Series21 square case/Black head ringed ones.

Carl

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #29 on:** October 25, 2017, 06:04:55 AM »

Paul for those of us who are unfamiliar.....which engines are the "black fin" engines? Make? Model? Thanks,Skip

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #30 on:** October 25, 2017, 06:17:05 AM »

One other thing,just curious which engine was used by the winner last year that went over 90mph?

bob whitney · « **Reply #31 on:** October 25, 2017, 09:47:25 AM »

the original K&B, Johnson and OS had a steel sleeve with the integral fins and had a black coating to keep them from rusting

the engine that won was on a 350 sq in circus king it was the first K&B bushing sport engine with a drop in sleeve before they went to the ringed piston. I don't see any diff in the timing between the slug piston and the ringed piston but the slug piston runs much better ,it was only made for about a year before going to the ringed piston

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #32 on:** October 25, 2017, 04:13:19 PM »

Bob thanks for that info. You and I met this year over by the Intermediate circle at Brodaks. We chatted briefly about who knows what. Anyway, I'm souped up about this Sportsman Speed deal. Can't wait to get a finalized list of engines so I can select one and build a plane around it. Cheers,PhillySkip

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #33 on:** October 25, 2017, 04:20:37 PM »

Bob,....Paul mentioned the K&B 35.If that's the engine that won the event last year, will you be able to use one like it this year?...or is that engine now off the list?

bob whitney · « **Reply #34 on:** October 25, 2017, 10:56:41 PM »

it was not a green head steel finned K&B so one and done

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #35 on:** October 30, 2017, 05:49:11 AM »

Paul,my pal John Saunders has loaned me a non green head K&B 35 in very nice shape. Do you think that I (being a novice at this) will be able to use it?.....or because an engine like this won last year it will be disqualified? Cheers,PhillySkip

Paul Smith · « **Reply #36 on:** October 30, 2017, 08:01:58 AM »

The Black Fin engines were different from most modern engines.

Today's engines have a cast aluminum case and a smooth, slip-in sleeve.

The Black Fin engines had a cylinder with the fins machined in place. These engines in my memory, include the OS Max (up to III), K&B Greenhead and McCoy Redhead. Johnsons were also built this way, but they were so high-performance that anybody with a healthy one would blow out the field.

There were also Veco engines of that era, but I don't recall if they were black fin or sleeved engines, but they will be allowed.

Around here, the ST C35 came in 1962 with an aluminum case and a slip-in sleeve, beat everything else, and we never bought a black fin engine again.

There are plenty of Fox 35 Stunts available, so nobody should feel excluded for the lack of a 55-year relic.

bob whitney · « **Reply #37 on:** October 30, 2017, 03:37:15 PM »

the Veco 35 was a drop in sleeve,and ran very good

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #38 on:** October 31, 2017, 10:56:23 AM »

yes
it
does
...........

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #39 on:** October 31, 2017, 01:57:09 PM »

This is what happens when you try to over regulate the competition. It's a fools errand...

Paul Smith · « **Reply #40 on:** October 31, 2017, 07:54:57 PM »

I know, you can't please everybody.

In 2016, we had just one event and drew nine entries. The modified guys (4 of 'em) did 100 MPH to 107 MPH. The "stockers" (five of them) did 60 to 69 MPH and asked for a separate event.

So in 2017, we had separate events and still got four 100+ entries in the "old" event and NINE entries in the "stock" event. So that was progress. More entries and the stock engine entries got a fair chance to compete.

With the approval of upper management, we will stay the course in 2018. The all-out engine builders will still have their event and with some minor tweeking, the sportsman class will continue.

I'm listening to the input and considering people's opinions.

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #41 on:** October 31, 2017, 11:07:28 PM »

Thanks Paul for clarifying the engine rules for the Sportsman Speed event. So, if I'm reading all of these posts correctly there are no "specs" on the plane....you can pretty much fly whatever you want as long as it can fly upright and inverted for 7 laps each way...right?

I do believe you may have said in one post no combat ships or flying wings am I correct?

I'm asking all of this so I can build a plane around either a Fox 35 or OS 35S. I'll give that K&B 35 back to John Saunders that he loaned to me as it is not a legal engine. Thanks,PhillySkip