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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Speed Talk => Topic started by: bob whitney on January 04, 2016, 08:41:54 AM
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anyone getting a Fox 35 speed ready for Brodaks. hope to test fly mine at the KOI in 2 weeks
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Bob, Al and I are both working on Fox planes and are targeting Brodak. Also trying to get Vigani interested. He builds nice planes. We are also going to sponsor a 'Speed' meet at Middlesex before Brodak. Fox .35, Perky and some sort of record ratio event. Haven't figured that out yet. More details on that when finalized. TS
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What is the record for the fox event?
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Bill Hughes flew at 96.04 Mph here in St Louis, John Moll was right behind at 95.14 mph
the link below has the results from our Fox 35 speed this past Oct
https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/contest-report-old-tyme-2015.pdf
these are the results from our Spring Speed contest, Bill only got to 87 mph in May
https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/fox-35-speed.jpg
John and Bill are trying to break 100 mph in Fox 35 speed
Fred
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here is the one I built for Brodak, needs testing come spring.
Motor might cause some discusion as it has a black head crank and a 75 series K&B piston and liner but it is a Fox 35 stunt case and is plain bearing.
I did one of these motors back in the late 70's and on a Ringmaster it did a bit over 92 MPH so hoping to bust the century mark. Might build another one for sammi to fly.
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Great looking model....!
Fred
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Henry Nelson showed up at last years (2015) Cold Cash Speed Bash at Dayton, OH and turned 101.33 in Fox 35 Speed. He shoehorned a Fox into a 1974 era F2C model. The motor was radial mounted to a really stout aluminum backplate/crutch unit. Very stiff. Sorry, no pics and I didn't get any details on the hop up.
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Nice Rich, Looks like the competition is getting serious :o. I've been working on my Fox speed and hope to get it in the air soon #^. This year at Brodak is going to be the big shoot out for Fox speed and Perky y1. I hope more guys jump out from behind the computer and come to compete and show off what they can do Z@@ZZZ, its going to be awesome %^@.
Al
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Oh Yeah. We are planning a warm up meet in NJ on June 5. Workin on stuff now. TS
PS Nice lookin rig Rich.
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C.T.,
I have asked to have this added to the speed category at this year's Brodak. What is your thinking about rules?
Where do we draw the line vis a vis what is a Fox 35 Stunt? Some of the postings indicate no limits at all. Not even the crankcase. It seems like 10% nitro is the only limitation.
To my way of thinking, a Fox 35 Stunt would need to use at least the crankcase, shaft, rod, piston, cylinder and head to still be what it is. Sure, you could go faster with better stuff, but that's not the name of the event.
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I'm beginning to think no one knows what a box stock engine is. I remember a Fox engine disallowed in comp because the machine screws were socket heads and not phillips.
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The problem is nobody said it needs to be stock.
So then where do we draw the line?
It seems like factory parts (even if modified) would allow the engine to be a "modified" Fox 35 Stunt.
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if u go with stock 35 stunt ,who is going to inspect the engines
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How many times do we have to go around the pole on this?
From the beginning, the fundamental requirement for this class is that the motor must be built around a Fox 35 Stunt crankcase that includes the O.E.M crankshaft bushing and that it have a suction fuel system. Everything else is open. Fox 35 Stunt clearly identifies a specific product line manufactured by Arnold & Fox and later by the Fox Manufacturing Company so there should be no question as to the crankcase requirement.
Speed is record racing. It's C/L's version of the dry lakes or Bonneville. Use your imagination. Have fun!
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C.T.,
I have asked to have this added to the speed category at this year's Brodak. What is your thinking about rules?
St. Louis Rules
Don't muck it up!
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Let's see St. Louis rules.
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These are the St Louis Rules
https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/fox-35-speed-rules-rev-a.pdf
The engine requirement is simple, Fox 35 Stunt with plain bearing and no pressure systems
You are allowed to modify the engine with a hemi-head, stuffer back plate, different needle but it has have the plain bearing. The only thing we check here in St Louis is to visually check that is a Fox 35 stunt engine with the plain bearing and it does not use pressure for the fuel system.
Here are the things you can do to the engine
Re-time the ports
Hemi Head
stuffer back plate
open up the venturi
different needle valve
Fred
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Ill through my two cents in. Stock Fox case on the outside, No cutting off the venture, swing weight venturi or rear venturi. Modification too the inside of the case are ok as long as it does not deform the outside look of the case, No ball or needle bearings. I am running a stock Fox crank bushing and stock OD crankshaft in my engine but I'm ok with guys like Richard Imhoff who are using a larger OD crankshaft, SUCTION FUEL PRESSURE ONLY. Piston, liner, rod, crankshaft, head, back plate, bolts, spray bar and needle valve are all ok to modify or replace, two blade props only, mini pipe ok. This makes it easy to police and the engine still looks like a Fox engine that some guy would use in his stunt ship, must use contest supplied 10% nitro fuel all castor or castor synthetic combination.
Al
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Bravo Fred! The rules are very explicit in what they say AND what they don't say. No guesswork about the rules.
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This really is a fun event because any airplane can be flown...Any airplane. If you can make a Cox PT-19 stay together for 14 laps with a Fox 35 Stunt installed go for it! Don't make it this more complicated than it really needs to be.
the only thing John Moll checks at our Fox 35 speed events is:
.016 solid lines
60' line length
Fox 35 stunt engine used with plain bushing and suction fuel system
There are a few other rules like one wheel I believe
We have been providing fuel at our contests
Fred
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Thanks for the St. Louis rules.
It says you can replace the NVA. That might be said to imply that the NVA is all you can replace.
By "modify the engine", it seems like drilling out the venturi comes under the heading of "modify". The technology is simple enough and nature takes its course when you try to take off it you make it too big.
The Rule Book is full of events where the machinists can make entire engines. If we allow custom made speed parts we no longer have a "fun" event.
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When John Moll first put these rules together he realized that there were many modified Fox 35 Stunt engines so he did not want to limit the number of entries because some had installed a hemi head or other parts that were not stock
Fred
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To Paul and ALL,
When Fred first posted this event and rules last year, it got my attention. Here was an event based on the most popular, available, reasonably priced (even now) and plentiful motor ever produced. The beauty of the rules are the simplicity of them. They allow a potential participant to exercise his imagination for the ultimate goal of achieving the highest speed using the Fox stunt .35. The 'box' is well defined. Stunt .35 case. Suction feed. Standard Fox friendly fuel. This leaves plenty of room for tinkering. As an example, I have been fooling within the rules for almost a year. Quite a few test flights and lots of fuel burned on the bench. Not all successful but the point is that it has occupied my attention and made me think about what might work. My repurposed B- team racer has had flights right around 95 mph so far. Not bad but what to do to go faster? Better airframe? Different engine mods? Props? As a speed event should be...... there are lots of options.
I think it would be a mistake to tinker with the rules instead of the, intended, tinkering with the airplanes. I would bet that there are plenty of fellows out there who would like to fly a speed event but don't want to go shopping for exotic engines and props etc. Or, want to fly a plane at 'real speed' times. Ie. 150+. At this point, I have no interest in flying at those speeds even though, 30+ years ago, my Formula 40 efforts were successful at the regional and national level. I have many great memories of flying with and, head to head, against many of the legendary speed guys. Especially my mentor and pal George Brown Jr and family.
One last thought. There are plenty of speed related events for Stock Fox .35's. Foxberg and Fox race. This event is different, as it should be. By watering it down it would be bland at best, hard to enforce and just not nearly as interesting as it is now. Go with current rules! There is No downside. TS
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OK, I can accept the St. Louis rules as written. The issue I have is that it leaves the door open for a "level 3" engine.
Level 1 -Stock.
Level 2 - simple hop-up including drilled-out venturi or flyweight carb, thin head gasket, packed backplate and other hand tool work.
Level 3 - all new high performance crank, rod, piston & sleeve.
The higher the level, the higher the speed and fewer contestants. Maybe it's a false alarm. Maybe nobody will actually stuff a Nelson of a FORA inside a Fox case. And it they do, maybe it won't work.
Since this is the final Brodak Fly In, it won't hurt to give it a go. If the winner is a FULL RACE engine inside a Fox 35 Stunt case, this will be first & last running combined.
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Sounds good Paul. I for one am looking forward to seeing some crazy stuff out there!! TS
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Mine should be ready for testing next weekend
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Hey Bob, Test Flights have been cancelled in N.J. this weekend............ and the foreseeable future! ;D
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in PA, test flights are a bit rough today but lots of time to build...
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Hey Dave, I better get to the bench. That is some BAD lookin stuff there. Spring is comin' just don't know when!!
TS
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nice models!
Saw a cute facebook post....showed 3 ft of snow, the caption read
"in the U.S. they call it a monster storm. In Newfoundland, we call it Wednesday"
Glad I'm not there!
go fast, go often.
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Any idea yet as to what day at Brodaks this will be held ?
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The Brodak website still has information on the 2015 fly-in, they need to post the 2016 calendar of events soon........
Fred
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nice models!
Saw a cute facebook post....showed 3 ft of snow, the caption read
"in the U.S. they call it a monster storm. In Newfoundland, we call it Wednesday"
Glad I'm not there!
go fast, go often.
And your happy when summer falls on a weekend!
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I have requested the same times as last year.
Official speed flying Wednesday morning. Early flying is encouraged Monday and Tuesday. Events close at 6 PM Wednesday. Any flight that completes a mile is a official.
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The rules require .016 solids. Silly.
IMO, .014 would have been plenty.
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Frank, I questioned the rules a while back myself. The replys were sensible and, as they say, rules is rules. The .016's may be a bit of overkill at 85mph but make more sense as speeds go up to.........?
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The rules require .016 solids. Silly.
IMO, .014 would have been plenty.
I didn't make the rules. Either way, I need to buy a set of lines. By going fat on the downstroke I save the issue of having to upsize later.
For some reason, Formula 40 Speed went up, thereby sticking me with a set perfectly-good .018" solids. I guess I'll be covered if Fox 35 ever goes up to .018".
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When John Moll was putting together the rules he talked with Carl Dodge and Bill Hughes from the NASS. John can provide more details on why they choose the .016 solids but either way everyone will be flying with the same lines so the only difference is the airplane. And if someone travels to another contest they can use the same lines.
Because some people don't want to buy a set of lines we are making a set of lines available for anyone to use if they don't have a set. at the Feb 28th ICE-O-Lated contest here in St Louis I am going to make the lines I use available if anyone needs it.
Fred
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What about exhaust pipes?
MM
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Not mentioned at all in the rules. Leaves room for experiments. Kind of like the 'good old days'.
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thought i read some place Mini Pipes only .if not ,it should be
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I don't see anything in the St Louis rules that excludes pipes. The field is really wide open, Fox 35 Stunt on suction with plain bearing, at least one wheel on the model. I put a link to the rules in the event section for the Fox 35 speed rules under the Brodak contest listing.
I would help if the Brodak website had a link over to these rules on the Fly-in information.
https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/fox-35-speed-rules-rev-a.pdf
Fred
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Rules as written:
"The only engine for this event is a Fox 35 stunt engine, NO Fox35 Combat motors, engine must run on suction, No pressure fuel systems, engine can be modified , but must remain plain bearing for the crankshaft. Needle valve can be changed".
Those rules are wide open for interpretation which means they can disqualify anyone if they are uncomfortable with your creativity. Been there done that.
You could saw the crankcase in half and JB weld it to the sides of a trimmed down LA25. What does modified mean? You are thinking limited modified but your rules are wide open.
MM
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Walter, I think you just don't get it. The whole point of the rules (which were crafted by some very astute guys including a world speed champ) is to encourage people to TRY. Many approaches may not work too well and some will. If somebody (maybe you?) were to 'cut a Fox in half and wrap it around a LA .25' and have it work, I would say "bully for you" because you went to a great deal of work to come up with your own approach. Since the event is relatively new I think it needs some time to see where it will go. If the speeds go up dramatically maybe a tiered system of some sort would be adopted.
In the meantime maybe those who are interested in working with the current formula will get to work and those who have no interest will spend their time working on what interests them instead of spreading unfounded obfuscation towards an event in which they have no skin. Walter, the fact is that you are one of the most capable modelers I have ever flown with and I know you could excel here as you have elsewhere. You should only fly/build whatever makes you happy but not spend time bashing something that doesn't interest you enough to TRY. TS
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I really believe you making this more complicated than it really is. Yes the a rules allow for a whole host of modifications, you could even drop in a different piston and liner and still compete. Like I have said before, the only inspection John Moll does here in St Louis is a very quick visual to make sure it a Fox 35 stunt on suction and still has the plain bearing. After that anything goes. Let it happen in June and I think you will be surprised on how easy and fun this event can be.
Fred
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Why use and LA.25? Get a Nelson .40, take out the bearings, insert aluminum plugs with bronze bushings for the crank. Then trim up the outside of the case a little and JB weld on the sides of the Fox 35 stunt case.
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As the event director I do not plan to exclude tuned pipes, enlarged venturis, or centrifugal carburetors.
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That's a cold shot Tommy. All I'm saying is that any event has a shelf life and this one will go sour quick when people start seeing half pan sidewinders and tuned pipes with swing carbs on a Fox35 with tiger 40 guts but, I'll keep my opinions to myself if that makes everybody happy.
bye,
MM
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I agree with Motorman's position. But I'm trying to, just this one time, go along with the rules as written by somebody else.
But yes, you can put a Mercury radiator cap on a Chevy 409 and call it a modified Ford. Win one race and nobody enters again.
But this is the final Brodak Fly In so nobody will enter again anyway.
This is basically, in my opinion, a theoretical discussion. Maybe somebody will invest a fortune to build an engine that will be disallowed a week later. I guess if that happens the owner get the one-and-only Brodak Fox 35 Speed prize.
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One Day at a Time
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Paul, so are you saying a competitor can use any engine he wants as long as it has some kind of Fox 35 stunt skin or veneer on it with a plain bearing crank? That's going to make the speed in this event way too fast especially for Brodak. The Fox 35 stunt case all by it self will limit the speed of this event, as long as the modification does not deform the outside look of the case.
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Al, I fully understand your very valid points.
But I don't see any way to address your issues AND us Saint Louis Rules.
Even the Fox 35 crankcase is outside the St. Louis rules.
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Fred, Thank you for your reply. I agree completely and am looking forward to spring testing and the couple of meets that I/we can get to. Look forward to meeting you. TS
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Personally, I am interested to see what crazy stuff can be crammed into a fox 35 case. I am putting in a box stock motor from my fox racer. The delta between my time and the winner's will be telling. I am guessing 5mph improvement per hour of engine work applied. Lots of hours between now and Brodak. What do you think?
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These are the only mods we have seen after two years of running this contest:
different needle valves
Hemi-Heads
stuffer back plates
some have reported changing the timing with the ports
inside diameter of the venturi was slightly enlarged
There have not been changes we have seen to the crankcase.......really don't over think this. If you really think about the number of truly stock Fox 35 Stunt engines they few and far between. That is why the rules allow for modifications. Give it a chance and see what shows up at flying site in June.
These are the only inspections that should be done before someone flies
1) Fox 35 Stunt engine with suction fuel system and still has the plain bearing, all other mods are allowed
2) At least one wheel on the model
3) .016 solid lines with 60' center to center length
I hope this helps. It amazes me that lots of people are having a hard time understanding just how flexible the rules are. We are so use to the rigid rules in other events that when we are given a chance to create something that we want to fly it is really refreshing. When I built my model I decided to have one wheel made the model really small by my standards. The wing span on my model is smaller than the elevator span on one of my large CL scale models. At our last Fox 35 speed event the models ranged from a super small speed looking model, a ringmaster, and other variations made from political sign materials.
Keep an open mind and let it play out, I really think some of the gloom and doom predictions are unwarranted. My next Fox 35 Speed model just might look like a Cox PT19! I also have a set of old speed model plans from the 1960's that I think I can cram a Fox 35 Stunt into.
Fred
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I've been following this thread for a while and enjoying it. As a stunt guy, I plan on building a plane for the event and have my list of stuff to do to the engine. Most of you sound like die hard speed guys and used to working on "speed" engines or building your own, and may have never really looked at a Fox .35 stunt.
When the engine first came out and through out it's life span, there have been some cosmetic exterior changes but the "inside numbers" have never changed. One advantage of the engine for stunt that made it a success was it's light weight. Light weight means not much metal in the crank case. Not much metal means you can do too much hogging on it with a Dremel tool or you'll go right through it! Not much room at the main bearing to try to put a needle bearing in there either. I know that would be the gauntlet of challenge to some to say "Just watch me!" but it just won't be worth the time and money spent for the effort. This won't be an official NATS event to no big national glory for the winners. It will be just what it is intended to be, a fun event for the guys that like to tinker with what they have available to them. There are lots of week links to the Fox.35 that I won't go into here. I've worked on lots of them for stunt models and while no great expert, I can get them to run well for stunt where most guys have issues. And trying to skin a real fast engine with a Fox coat just won't be practical. I have watched and timed many speed events that we have held here at Buder park and spent a lot of time talking with the contestants and have come away with one important aspect that will tell the tale at any Fox .35 event. The answer to more speed, after you get a consistent and reliable engine, will be centered around the prop and air frame. Time spent trying to come up with another 100o RPM might be better spent working on props and a airplane! I just intend to see how fast I can go with the basic engine with some of the mods I know how to do, and learn what I need to learn about speed props. I think the biggest factor to level the playing field is using Fox friendly fuel at a fixed nitro content, which translates into club provided fuel for the event.
Now just gotta find the time to build the airplane and get to work on an engine!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Today, I did some baseline bench runs on two healthy Fox 35 Stunt engines. The only non-stock additions are the Fox Stuffer backplate and one has a R.S. NVA. I used an APC 8x8 and Powermaster 10/29 Fuel.
One reached 11,700 RPM ; the other 11,800 RPM.
By rough calculation, I believe that'll it cost $75-$100 per every 1000 RPM increase. So, roughly $300- $400 beyond the cost of the box stock 35 Stunt. And this is just the engine.
I'm not saying this to discourage anyone from trying this event- it sounds like fun and I might try it. Also, I'm not trying to anger anyone. Definitely not casting dispersions on the upcoming Brodak event or the St.Louis rules . What would help is if there were more events to make it cost effective and help amortize things; so to speak.
Appears that one needs to spin at least 15,000 RPM -or more to be competitive.
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Hi Frank;
Those numbers aren't bad. What makes you think either one of those engines wouldn't be "competitive?" You are using stock components for the most part and off the shelf prop and fuel. With some work on a few props and a decent model, who knows how fast it would be on a given day. And this is kind of what the event is all about, how fast it will be on a given day. I don't think too many people will travel any distance to just fly Fox.35 speed. But as a fill in, fun event, it gives a guy something else to fly, and for the contests where there are multiple disciplines, another area for a guy, say like me who primarily flies stunt, a chance to ease into something else. I have always like and admired speed, and have timed who knows how many flights here at our speed contest. But trying one of the many events has just eluded me due to time and money. This is an event where I already have a lot of what I need, except spare time, but I'm working on it! The first time we held the event at last year's speed contest, I entered an old Ringmaster with an engine that had a hemi head and stuffer back plate. I didn't have much time to try a lot of different props, and I don't remember what my speed was, but I wasn't in last place! One of the ways I think this event will work well is the standing start. That can be kind of tricky and presents a challenge to us newbies. I gotta get to work getting my work bench cleaned off and some other irons out of the fire so I can get going on a plane.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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That thar's funny Bob...... LL~
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Frank,
If you could honestly offer 1,000 RPM per $100, there are guys who would ante up $2,000 for an extra 20,000. No questions asked.
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I can make a Fox stunt run at 20,000 RPM.
I get to select the prop though.
Read some stuff I wrote for the LA 25 proto event and apply it to a Fox. Get some of that stuff Bob designed for the engine and be a winner. Since it's a proto event, build a super light model and remember the basics...most easy increase in power is in the prop.
gotta go watch the movie "Grumpy Old Men"
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Ann Margret and Daryl Hannah. Who wouldn't watch that?
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I'll start by saying that I hear there is a new guy on the block. I heard the team name but don't know who the members are, except they will be at Brodak and have already claimed to be the winner of the Fox Speed event.
If anybody know who they are send me a note.
The team name is:
Bo Diddley Speed Team.
I was sent this through a 3rd party email so I cannot tell who it is.
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Looks like a Fox 35 to me.
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(they will be at Brodak and have already claimed to be the winner of the Fox Speed event)
I don't know if they should give them the trophy just yet n1. My engine in it's initial testing, is putting out some amazing RPMs n~ I can't wait to do some test flying when the weather breaks ;D
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Finally, a proper Fox!! I'm thinkin' of a mysterious substance to rub on my airframe to help it slip through the air. Or, maybe, carry a hydrogen tank to decrease weight. Lotsa weird thinking going on during this cold NJ winter.
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This is consistant with what was allowed to happen to Profile Carrier in 1976.
It went from "a stock plain bearing 36 RC engine" to "a plain bearing 36" to just plain "a 36". The four guys who still fly the event think it's OK.
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(they will be at Brodak and have already claimed to be the winner of the Fox Speed event)
I don't know if they should give them the trophy just yet n1. My engine in it's initial testing, is putting out some amazing RPMs n~ I can't wait to do some test flying when the weather breaks ;D
I hope the picture is just a PhotoShop prank.
Maybe we need to put a lid on such foolishness by requiring (as a minimum) that the engine fit into a standard Fox 35 Stunt mounting profile, which is to say: bolt holes, crankcase size and backplate flanges.
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I like the way some guys are trying to come up with a winner. By the way when Fox came out with his last carrier engine it was discovered to be over size. Weren't the rules changed to allow up to a 40?
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Just to be clear the St Louis Rules were set up to only use the Fox 35 Stunt. The combat or other versions of the engine are not allowed, I know that John Moll would not allow the two engines that are pictured above to be used at any St Louis event
Fred
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I agree
Meet me in St Louie...Louie. LL~
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Fred, yet John Moll would allow a engine that the only part that was a Fox 35 stunt engine was the crank case? Eric
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...yet John Moll would allow a engine that the only part that was a Fox 35 stunt engine was the crank case? Eric
That's how the rules are written. That's how it worked the first time around with Eric Williams' Formula Fox challenge. That's what hot rodders do. So, what's the issue?
BTW, the only OEM Ford Flathead part used on the race engine was the iron block. That's what hot rodders do.
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Bob
I have never flown a speed event but as I read this long thread it occurred to me that the ubiquitous Fox 35 stunt was just like 50s~60s car engines with a lot of potential within the rules
These are the only inspections that should be done before someone flies
1) Fox 35 Stunt engine with suction fuel system and still has the plain bearing, all other mods are allowed
2) At least one wheel on the model
3) .016 solid lines with 60' center to center length
Lighter stronger crank
Slightly larger bore
Maybe de-stroke or over stroke
optimize fuel delivery and exhaust
Head shape
Porting
Timing
specialty coatings....ceramic piston tops.... Slippery skirts High performance coatings did this for my Harley pistons
Make ringed pistons and use zero gap rings.... Total performance did this from my Harley pistons
Perfectly mated crank shaft bearing and bronze bushed nose bearing ground to micro fine clearance
Total loss pressure OIL system just for nose bearing.... Back side of crank running an o-ring so OIL does not dilute fuel and bladder pressure OIL to the nose for duration of the run
This is jut off top of my head with out even considering cheating with Faux Fox 35 castings
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Some folks will fully understand
My 1965 first car ( 65 Ranchero) had Ford High Performance 289 CI V8 with (HI PO was a 4BBL carb) that reportedly had 225 HP
I did a bunch of Hot Rod Magazine mods .... over bore x .040, Kieth Black hyper eutectic pistons, Crowler Cam (forget the timing and duration's) Ed Pinks Crank shaft...de stroked, Aluminum heads ( larger exhaust and SMALLER intakes), Roller rockers and lifters, Offenhauser Intake and Holly 650 double pumper carburetor, Tacoma Speed works did most of the engine machining.. decks flat, and lowered, line bored the cam and crank journals, and I think there is a LOT I am miss remembering...
Tacoma speed had a chassis dyno and this combo into a Borg Warner T-10 that I made into a Super T-10 (larger diameter main shaft and bearings) out to a 4.10:1 posi rear gear set with Mickey Thompson N-50/15s produced 487HP...
I took it to PIR and SIR several times and was a real ground ponder but the pinion shaft was weak link and I snapped a lot of them before moving to a TRUCK drive shaft and ended with 3.88:1 gears for 12.34 ETs in the 1/4
You can not do that today with most moder engines but in the day of the Fox 35....lots of power adders are worth trying... even with a inferior crank case design and lakc of materiel to work with
I have a few older Fox 35s I might just pay with for fun...until they explode all over my test stand....grin
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Have at it!
For those of you who are so inclined, George Moir authored a build article in the March 1955 issue of Model Airplane News for his Rambler AMA Team Racer. He included a companion article on his motor set-up, including a step-by-step rework guide, detail drawings, and before & after photos. It's a good starting point. Plus, buy a decent degree wheel.
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Fred, That's good stuff!
Sidebar: What Harley?
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Bob my first was a 77 FLH (AMF) that SUXed and put me off Harley for a long time on Metric bikes
I owned many of the fastest production bikes there were in the 80s and 90s
I got a 93 FXR in Germany on Military sales for a exceptional price but needed much more HP for the AutoBahn
So I reworked the 80CI EvoLoution 42 HP engine to get over 90HP with the correct mods keeping it near 82 CI
I sold it to a friend and he and I are re-working it again to be a born again street ponder
This bike is over geared with a large(est) tanny drive sprocket and smallest wheel drive made (34 tooth Andrews on the tranny and German 60 tooth 0n the wheel)....getting the correct belt was a challenge
Funny..... $8K for basic bike... $ 10K in mods back then...today we have another $6k invested to just make it idle properly....
HP and reliability costs big BUX$$$$$$$
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Fred,
Cool. Thanks.
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I'm gonna get me a pair of Harley mittens!
Cool graphics on the Fox .29 timing specs.
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Hey. I'm enjoying the cool graphics on those two Custom 'FOX STUNT' motors!! Bob. If you want to see Flatties in action check out the ECTA meets in Willmington, Ohio. Some BAD stuff there! TS (aka PRT)
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Hey. I'm enjoying the cool graphics on those two Custom 'FOX STUNT' motors!! Bob. If you want to see Flatties in action check out the ECTA meets in Willmington, Ohio. Some BAD stuff there! TS (aka PRT)
C.T., 1 hour SE from Dayton. I should have already done this. Thanks for the reminder.
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This is a bit off thread but..... If we were going I would be sure to meet up out there. This year we are going to Maine the following week. Hope for some good Ju-Ju up there! Also, one of the principles up there is a cl flyer from NY. Joe Daly Sr. In the meantime, will be working on the Fox powered machine.
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I had posted the suggestion quite awhile back to do simple Fox 35 stunt speed event, at first it was "Oh No Anything but a Fox 35". I left it at that, seems some others have ran with it and here we are. I like the idea of the 95+ speed as us more senior flyers can do that, maybe a little longer lines, but OK for now. I also like the phase or class idea that Paul posted. Could be just two, stock and unlimited, but the three work, good starting point. Maybe average best two flights from the three officials, would then require reliability and no one run wonders. As time allows I hope to build one and have some fun.
Best, DennisT
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What's the spec fuel for Brodaks, what oil?
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If they are following St. Louis rules, it's standard Fox .35 fuel, 25% all castor and 5% nitro. That is the fuel we've used at our contests so far, all SIG fuel I believe.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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A previous post from Fred in St. Louis states 25 castor/ 10 nitro. That's what we will use in Middlesex and, I am sure, Brodak. TS
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I plan to provide Ritch's Brew fuel with 10% nitro and a variety of oil content, 29, 23, 20 and 17.
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All this event needs to tone it down is $100.00 claiming rule . Any "Fox" worth more than that isn't a Fox .
Brad
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Put me down for gall of 20% and one of 29% Bob
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Is that Ritch's Brew all castor oil?
Thanks,
MM
P.S. Is there going to be a trophy or something?
P.P.S. Claiming rule: all my engines will be tuned for max power and explode on lap 16.
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All this event needs to tone it down is $100.00 claiming rule . Any "Fox" worth more than that isn't a Fox .
Brad
"Not a real green dress...That's cruel..."
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I can live with 100.00.
Fox .35....value 10.00
Aluminum .70 / lb USD
My machine time.....worthless
K
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I can live with 100.00.
Fox .35....value 10.00
Aluminum .70 / lb USD
My machine time.....worthless
K
But you have to win for someone to want it.
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I plan to provide Ritch's Brew fuel with 10% nitro and a variety of oil content, 29, 23, 20 and 17.
For a contest, that is exactly what you should NOT do. There should be just one fuel provided only. That is one of the things that levels the playing field a bit. All these monstrosities that are being cobbled together is what kills fun and entry level events. The idea of this event is to try and get people interested in participating in speed. The Fox .35 Stunt is kind of the 6 cylinder Chevy of the model engine world, and the challenge is to get as much out of it as you can. This will never be a NATS event, never a world champs event, just something else to fly when you travel to a contest and see how well you do against the guys there on that particular day. At first the idea of the event was kind of poo pooed here on this list, and now guys are spending all sorts of time and wasting good parts for other engines just to show off that you can do it. Why not just try and stay within the spirit of the intent of the event? If it were me I would put that time and effort into one of the more established and significant speed events and just see what I can get out of standard engine parts for the Fox .35 event. As a stunt flyer that has a lot of experience with the Fox .35 in that discipline, I will take a lot of satisfaction home knowing that, if my model does well, I did it all the old fashioned way. That is the challenge in my book. The beauty of this event, in my view, is using the engine we picked, and using the fuel we picked. The Fox .35 Stunt isn't the best as far as quality is concerned, depending on what vintage engine you have. It's real light, not much metal to work with, and the case is as soft as a sponge so you can't force it to do too much. Duke designed it that way, and it's light weight is what attracted lot to stunt guys in the first place. If you use OEM stock parts, you need to use the 25% all castor fuel. That is what the engine was designed around, and can also be a limiting factor in how the engine performs as as well, as I'm sure you guys know, and tends to level the playing field a bit. If you fly other events that are flown with club provided fuel, I'm sure there is no choice of oil or nitro there, at least as far as I have seen. So I challenge every one to just try and stay within the spirit of the intent of the event. Build up an engine using the stock OEM parts and do with them what you will, and see what you can do
Unless you don't think you can do it?
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Dan I agree there should be one fuel which should be 10 nitro 25 castor. On everything else you said I disagree. This event has attracted top competitors and I can't wait to see their excellent equipment perform. I didn't see any spirit and intent written in the rules and all my stuff conforms to the rules as written. I have flown speed at major contests and I've built an engine using the OEM parts that performs very well. I'm moving into more exotic mods and many are doing the same. This contest has a vintage vibe that has given CL speed a much needed boost.
MM
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Dan I agree there should be one fuel which should be 10 nitro 25 castor. On everything else you said I disagree. This event has attracted top competitors and I can't wait to see their excellent equipment perform. I didn't see any spirit and intent written in the rules and all my stuff conforms to the rules as written. I have flown speed at major contests and I've built an engine using the OEM parts that performs very well. I'm moving into more exotic mods and many are doing the same. This contest has a vintage vibe that has given CL speed a much needed boost.
MM
Then don't kill the "vintage vibe" by using modern technology! As thin and light as the .35 Stunt case is, I'm surprised that you were able to bore it out for other liners. You can only drill out the venturi by so much before there isn't sufficient metal to support tightening the spray bar!. Many stunt flyers have drown to hate the engine because of the bad runs they got, not realizing that they caused it by bolting the engine to a crooked and uneven motor mount and distorting the case. But the engine has a lot of history and is abig part of model aviation history. I've done some other racing, motorcycles and karts, but never had a big budget to work with, so I always had to work harder to be successful, and part of being successful, to me is finishing well and having fun. Part of the fun was beating the guys who spent wheel barrows full of money and had flashy equipment with my plain Jane garage specials every once in a while. It's pretty much the same thing now. I have always been interested in speed, and have been helping run our contest here in St. Louis for many years now, just never had the extra time and budget to get into it to any extent. I have learned through the experience of working the contests that speed is an event that requires tedious attention to small details and with my other interests I would have to exclude other endeavors that I don't want to give up. This Fox .35 Stunt class will give me a chance to dabble in the event a bit with out much expense because I already have most of what I need. I think there are a lot of guys like me that feel the same way, but will get turned off if they know they are having to run up against pros with full machine shops that are trying to turn the lowly little Fox .35 into a Ferrari. Like I mentioned before, almost every "entry level" event I have heard of has gone the path of being elevated to much more that what was intended. EZ-B in indoor free flight, slow combat, P-40 stunt, are just a few I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure there are more. As hard as it is getting people interested in any aspect of model airplanes, and specifically control line and it's different disciplines, I just don't see the need to drive people off before the event really gets going.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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The 29% is all castor. The others are castor/synthetic blend.
In "real" events, like F1C, F2A or F2D, the FAI can dictate a fuel the world designs engines to deal with it.
But this is a casual fun event designed to let people use what they've got or make a special "Fox". 29% might be what an old loose Fox needs, but way too much oil for a tight new AAC Nelson-Fox. I think just one fuel would work great for somebody and hurt everybody else. I'm sticking with 10% nitro and a choice of oil.
I hope at lease half the people in this discussion actually compete.
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With all the hub-bub about Fox many people have forgotten that the Perky event will also be flown at the same time. So, because of the wide diversity in Perky engine choices, Pauls fuel choice plan is spot on. I for one will not be using 18% oil in my olde Fox or 29% castor in my Perky. TS
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my thoughts exactly
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I like the idea of oil choice, as long as Paul (the CD) is supplying it and its is 10% Nitro.
Al
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With all the hub-bub about Fox many people have forgotten that the Perky event will also be flown at the same time. So, because of the wide diversity in Perky engine choices, Pauls fuel choice plan is spot on. I for one will not be using 18% oil in my olde Fox or 29% castor in my Perky. TS
Why do you provide fuel for Perky? At our contest, with the big diversity of engines in Perky, you run your own fuel. We have everything from Fox.15s to OPS and we have trophies for the three fastest, the slowest and the average speed ( as was the intent for the event when it was first held.)That avoids the expense to the host club of having a Heinz 57 variety of fuels on hand. But for Fox.35 Stunt, where most will be suing original components, the one fuel makes sense, and like I mentioned before, acts as kind of an equalizer. It's a known entity and factor, so you can build your engine to meet it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I understand having all those fuels for the perky and just makes sense to use them with the fox event too.
Dan, if anybody ruined the event it wasn't me. You've got guys up around 100mph and I haven't even taken a test flight yet. I do want to follow this path according to my gifts, at least until I achieve something reasonable. I would hope my thread about developing my Fox engine would be of interest to someone. Apparently, before I started the thread, I wasn't even qualified to talk about the event so, it's done some good for me at least :P.
MM
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(trophies for the three fastest)
When you have a big contest for top speed and everyone brings their own fuel, you can't control the nitro that they are using. Upping the nitro in the fuel can increase the speed big time if the guy knows how to use it. Paul did a great job at Brodak last year to make sure everyone was on a level playing field. As far as oil goes, lets say you have an engine with a Nelson glow plug in it and it meets the rules, the CD gives you 29% all castor to use for the event. You would be lucky if you could keep the engine running after you pulled the battery off. To me that would be like saying to all the stunt flyers that the only handle they could use would be a UReely ( kind of an equalizer).
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(trophies for the three fastest)
When you have a big contest for top speed and everyone brings their own fuel, you can't control the nitro that they are using. Upping the nitro in the fuel can increase the speed big time if the guy knows how to use it. Paul did a great job at Brodak last year to make sure everyone was on a level playing field. As far as oil goes, lets say you have an engine with a Nelson glow plug in it and it meets the rules, the CD gives you 29% all castor to use for the event. You would be lucky if you could keep the engine running after you pulled the battery off. To me that would be like saying to all the stunt flyers that the only handle they could use would be a UReely ( kind of an equalizer).
Club provide fuel for specific events is typically spelled out in advertising for the event, so the contestant should be prepared for what expects to fly. But I have seen it before, a person drives to an event, unloads and asks,"What's going on?" "What are we doing that for?" and has a bad day. When the concept of the event came up, it was decided that most contestants would be using standard Fox components so the provided fuel needed to address that. One fuel keeps it simple and helps hold costs down for the host club. The event is called "Fox .35 Stunt Speed" and 29% oil is what Fox .35 Stunt engines use.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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To me that would be like saying to all the stunt flyers that the only handle they could use would be a UReely ( kind of an equalizer).
One of the events I mentioned that in an earlier post that started out as an entry level and/or fun eventis P-40 or Profile 40 Stunt. The rules were pretty basic, just like Fox.35 Speed. It had to be a profile model with a side mounted engine, no larger than a .40 engine, no tuned pipes, and a 10 point bonus added to your score if you did not use flaps. It doesn't get any more basic and simple than that. The no flap bonus was added to encourage entry level flyers to give stunt a try with many of the designs out there that don't use flaps. Trimming a stunt model is easier if flaps are eliminated. After a while some guys started whining, "Why can't I use a ST.51?" Answer, because the rules limit to a .40 or less. "Why can't I mount my engine upright or inverted?" Answer, because the rules say it has to be a side winder. It presents a challenge to get a good engine run on a side mounted engine. After another period of time, rules started getting massaged all over the country to where it's now just called "Profile Stunt" and anything goes. The spirit and intent of the event is gone for the most part. We still run our stunt contest with P-40 rules in the original version, and this year we upped the anti by adding a 10 point penalty to electric mounted models. Not an outright ban, just a penalty. When asked why, the answer is "The rules call for a side mounted engine. Electric motors have no side mounted orientation, so that presents an unfair advantage." A contestant can still use an electric motor and put it in a model with no flaps and it cancels out the penalty. So, this type of thing has been addressed in stunt before, and in other disciplines, where an event is established right away people start looking for a way to circumvent the rules or rewrite them to their advantage. Like I have already mentioned, the event is "Fox .35Stunt Speed." Not "Fox .35 Stunt Case and See What You Can Stuff Into It Including More Displacement Speed."
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Paragraph 14 in the St. Louis Fox 35 Speed Rules says "Fuel will be provided per AMA Rules".
The fuel specification for AMA C/L Speed classes is as follows:
7. Fuel
Fuel of standard formula will be supplied by the contest organizers. The
percentages of ingredients in the fuel mixture supplied must be accurate,
consistent with careful and accurate mixing techniques. Fuel for two-cycle glow
plug engines shall contain 10% nitromethane, 20% lubricant, and the rest shall be
methanol. Fuel for jet engines shall consist of 80% methanol and 20%
Nitromethane.
It doesn't say "Fox Superfuel" blend. It doesn't say "Designer lubricants" to suit individual theories.
So...Why all the variation?
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(Fuel for two-cycle glowplug engines shall contain 10% nitromethane, 20% lubricant)
Yes, in racing at the Nats you get to choose between synthetic blend or all castor.
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ok we all know we are over stressing the fox 35 in this event , lets just go with 10% nitro, 29% oil ,caster or mix and go with it ,thet the other class's do what they want
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One of the events I mentioned that in an earlier post that started out as an entry level and/or fun eventis P-40 or Profile 40 Stunt. The rules were pretty basic, just like Fox.35 Speed. It had to be a profile model with a side mounted engine, no larger than a .40 engine, no tuned pipes, and a 10 point bonus added to your score if you did not use flaps. It doesn't get any more basic and simple than that. The no flap bonus was added to encourage entry level flyers to give stunt a try with many of the designs out there that don't use flaps. Trimming a stunt model is easier if flaps are eliminated. After a while some guys started whining, "Why can't I use a ST.51?" Answer, because the rules limit to a .40 or less. "Why can't I mount my engine upright or inverted?" Answer, because the rules say it has to be a side winder. It presents a challenge to get a good engine run on a side mounted engine. After another period of time, rules started getting massaged all over the country to where it's now just called "Profile Stunt" and anything goes. The spirit and intent of the event is gone for the most part. We still run our stunt contest with P-40 rules in the original version, and this year we upped the anti by adding a 10 point penalty to electric mounted models. Not an outright ban, just a penalty. When asked why, the answer is "The rules call for a side mounted engine. Electric motors have no side mounted orientation, so that presents an unfair advantage." A contestant can still use an electric motor and put it in a model with no flaps and it cancels out the penalty. So, this type of thing has been addressed in stunt before, and in other disciplines, where an event is established right away people start looking for a way to circumvent the rules or rewrite them to their advantage. Like I have already mentioned, the event is "Fox .35Stunt Speed." Not "Fox .35 Stunt Case and See What You Can Stuff Into It Including More Displacement Speed."
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Maybe someone could devise a formula that takes custom machined parts and money spent into account and pick a winner that way. Then you don't have to fly the models and risk blowing up your custom "fox" engine.
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Aw shucks, that would take away all the fun...
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Hey Bob, I like that case. Can I put my rib cage in there from 41 years of go kart racing.
MM
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Hey Bob, I like that case. Can I put my rib cage in there from 41 years of go kart racing.
MM
I guess so. The only thing is you would have to go to Invercargill, New Zealand. The case belonged to the late Burt Munro, famous for his land speed racing exploits on a very, very much modified 1920 Indian Scout.
Actually, what is being done to the Fox 35 Stunt is not so much different than what Burt did to his Indians.
By the way, Burt's not in the case...
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(Actually, what is being done to the Fox 35 Stunt is not so much different than what Burt did to his Indians)
Or what's been done to big block Chevys S?P
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Ah yes me and Burt, kindred spirits.