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Author Topic: 21 profile proto  (Read 5157 times)

Offline bob whitney

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21 profile proto
« on: August 04, 2018, 05:27:43 PM »
where can I find the 21 profile proto rules
rad racer

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2018, 10:23:11 AM »
Not in the AMA Rule Book.  Must be local.  I saw one at Muncie.  It seemed like the Rule Book 21 Proto, only road-killed.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 04:26:35 PM »
21 Profile Proto is a new NASS sponsored event. Rules were published in Speed Times, August - December 2017, Volume 36, Number 3. Speed Times is the official publication of the North American Speed Society and is an exclusive benefit to members of the Society. Membership information is available on the NASS web site, www.clspeed.org.

P.S. The 21 Profile Proto rules will be up on the NASS website in the near future.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:15:15 PM by Bob Heywood »
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2018, 03:32:40 PM »
just what we need. another profile event for guys that don't want to take the time to build a REAL speed ship
rad racer

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 07:58:48 AM »
Yeah! Like a molded carbon fiber Perky!

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 09:22:14 AM »
what is your point???
rad racer

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 11:48:06 AM »
21 Profile Proto Event
Purpose
The purpose of the event is to encourage folks to fly speed with an easy to build aircraft that uses the popular .21 cubic engine. All AMA speed regulations for the size class of model shall be applicable except for the additions and modifications listed below.
Design of the 21 Profile Proto Speed Model.
•   Proto speed models need not be of a scale aircraft; however, the design must resemble that of a full-scale airplane.
•   Model design must comply with the AMA Control Line General Section Paragraph 10 for profile fuselage design and the requirements of the 21 Profile Proto Specifications.
•   Model design may have a conventional or “butterfly” tail assembly.
•   Model design must have a clear cockpit canopy sized in proportion to the model. Flush cockpits are not permitted unless the model design is that of a full-scale airplane.
•   No flying-wing designs will be permitted unless they are scale models of full-scale aircraft. 
21 Profile Proto Specifications
•   The model shall have a minimum wing span of 24 inches (16 inches for a biplane)
•   The model shall have a minimum wing area of 125 square inches.
•   The stabilizer must have a minimum area 25% of the wing.
•   The distance from the trailing edge of the wing to the leading edge of the stabilizer must be a minimum of 5.00 inches.
•   The wing and stabilizer must be symmetrical in span with no asymmetry. A deviation of 1/4 inch maximum is permitted using the engine mounting plane as the center of the aircraft.
•   The model must have fixed landing gear, with minimum of two (2) main wheels permanently attached. The main wheels must have an equal minimum diameter of 1.50 inches and laterally separated from each other by a distance between centerlines of 6.0 inches.
•   The Maximum Fuselage Width shall be ¾ inch.
•   The weight limit of the aircraft is 30 oz. maximum.
•   The engine shall have a maximum size in displacement of .2135 cubic inches. An open exhaust or minipipe type exhaust system are only permitted.  A minipipe cannot be longer than six inches from the centerline of the engine bore to the end of pipe. The mini pipe shall have a constant inside diameter.
•   Any fuel system is acceptable and the use of a shutoff is encouraged.
•   Only two bladed propellers are acceptable.
•   Only two wire type control systems are acceptable. The minimum wing tip separation of the lines shall be .20".
•   The control system, consisting of lead outs (if used), bell crank, push rod and control horn will be totally exposed and external to normal airplane contours. The leadout wires (or flight wires if no leadouts are used) cannot be recessed into the wing, the pushrod cannot be mounted inside the fuselage, nor will the bellcrank be allowed to be mounted or hidden inside the wing or fuselage. The entire control system as defined above must be visible when the model is viewed in plan view from top and/or bottom with the controls in neutral.
•   Models must have the engine piston and cylinder parallel with the wing and the top of the cylinder facing the outside of the circle and a fully exposed tank or tank enclosure for bladder type tanks must mounted on the same side of the fuselage as the engine. The tank may not form a fairing behind the cylinder head, but a fairing behind the tank is permitted.
Lines and pull test
Wire size shall be (2) .018" x 60'-0". The model and control system shall be subjected to a 36g pull test.
Fuel
Fuel shall be of standard composition containing 10% nitromethane, 20% lubricants, and 70% methanol. The fuel will be supplied by contest management.
Launching
Proto models shall take off from the ground or runway under their own power. Assisting (pushing) the aircraft in any way will disqualify the attempt.
Timing
The model will be timed from the instant it is released for takeoff for 14 laps (1 mile).
•   The use of a transit trace configured for 14 lap proto launches is acceptable for timing.
•   For manual timing, the timers shall be located on the opposite side of the circle from the launch point (180 degrees from launch point). The timing mark is an imaginary straight line going from the timers and passing through the pylon to the point where the model is launched. Sighting reference for counting laps and terminating the clocking is as the model passes behind the pylon.
Flying
For manual timing, the flier may select his launching location. For transit trace timing, the sensor(s) will be located at an agreed to location and all flights will be from this location unless the wind changes significantly and the contestants agree to move the location. 
The flight will be timed from the instant the model is released for takeoff. The contestant will be allowed a maximum of 1½ laps in which to get the model airborne before he is required to fly from the pylon as specified under “Competition Flying from a Pylon.” However, any attempt to whip the model more than what is necessary to get it airborne during the first lap and one half shall constitute a foul, disqualifying the flight. Any such whipping to get the model safely airborne must cease immediately when the model becomes airborne and is in a normal attitude.
Scoring
The best official flight by each competitor in an event, in terms of miles per hour (mph), shall be used for competition and record scoring. To separate the competitors in the case of a tie, the average of the competitor’s two (2) best flights will be taken. In the case of the two (2) best flights still producing a tie, the average of the three (3) best flights will be taken to determine the winner
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 04:38:27 PM »
what is your point???
I disagree with the idea that the "legitimacy" of a speed plane is somehow related to how long it takes to build. The fanciest, trickiest Perky is still a Perky. An F2A is certainly a "real" speed plane, but the vast majority are bought rather than built. But the most important thing is that I must razz you whenever possible!  ;)

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 05:14:10 PM »
Bring it on S?P y1
rad racer

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 07:03:08 AM »
Bob, Thanks for posting the rules. If I could just clarify one point. The max fuselage width is 3/4" but where is this usually measured. Does a metal motor mount pad count as fuselage width. Does the check cowl count as fuselage width because, I think it says somewhere in the rule book that, there's no limit to check cowl construction in an even requiring a profile fuselage. That rule is put in there in a way so it superceeds the 25% of wing chord cheek cowl rule so it allows for full length cheek cowls on profiles. I don't want to build a plane that might get a dq so just asking for opinions on this.


Thanks,
Motorman 8)

The 3/4" dimension may be measured anywhere along the entire length of the fuselage.

A metal mounting pad does not count as being part of the fuselage so long as someone does not attempt to create a defacto speed pan.

The 3/4" dimension includes any additional reinforcement or material such as doublers and / or cheek cowls of any configuration. If you carefully read the Profile Definition and Chart in the C/L General Rules I believe you will see the distinction. Again, the intent is to rule out the use of such additional streamlining that makes the model something other than a plank profile.

The Profile paragraph refers to Racers when covering this issue. Please remember that 21 Profile Proto is a Speed class, not a Racing class.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2018, 12:44:30 PM »
Well the old DOC printed off the rules just in case I latch onto a 21 size engine. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2018, 11:35:14 AM »
OK, 60' C to C I might be able to keep up with one. Is this flown with a pylon? What type of shutoff is usable - who makes them?


Best,    DennisT

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2018, 12:39:17 PM »
OK, 60' C to C I might be able to keep up with one. Is this flown with a pylon? What type of shutoff is usable - who makes them?


Best,    DennisT

Go to the rat racing and team racing board. Look for "shutoff for profile racing".

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 01:22:32 PM »
OK, 60' C to C I might be able to keep up with one. Is this flown with a pylon? What type of shutoff is usable - who makes them?


Best,    DennisT

Yes. This event is flown from a pylon.

The flight will be timed from the instant the model is released for takeoff. The contestant will be allowed a maximum of 1½ laps in which to get the model airborne before he is required to fly from the pylon as specified under “Competition Flying from a Pylon.” However, any attempt to whip the model more than what is necessary to get it airborne during the first lap and one half shall constitute a foul, disqualifying the flight. Any such whipping to get the model safely airborne must cease immediately when the model becomes airborne and is in a normal attitude.

You only need 1 fl.oz. of fuel.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 05:28:32 PM »
who is going to call the whipping
rad racer

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2018, 12:10:56 PM »
Where is this being flown?

Thanks,
Motorman 8)

NATS, Dayton, Sugar Grove, St. Louis...

Promote a meet in your corner of the universe and add it to the card...

Better yet, come back to Dayton. It's been a really long time since you were last here. It would be a lot of fun...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:18:41 PM by Bob Heywood »
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 12:12:32 PM »
who is going to call the whipping

The same judge that calls whipping at The Brodak...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2018, 04:58:46 PM »
2018 NATS entries...
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2018, 05:00:40 PM »
Basically scaled up 1/2A Proto designs. Plenty of development opportunities...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2018, 07:32:24 AM »
Paragraph 10 of the General Rules refers back to a table (which is now up near paragraphs 7 & 8) for fuselage width & nose reinforcement.

Unfortunately, none of the events on the menu are very close to 21 Profile Proto Speed. 

If you cherry-pick something close you could justify a 3/4" fuse with an extra 3/4" reinforcement. 

I suggest that people who make up new events just say what they require and not refer back to The Book which is subject change.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2018, 05:39:14 PM »
People who make up new events would be better off just saying what they want rather than cross referencing AMA General, CL General, and CL Speed rules.  These rules can change at any time and put the special event offsides.

I'm not planning on building one of these, but a simple dimension would have headed-off a lot of discussion.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 08:59:19 PM »
My point was:  "Instead of sending people on a dead-end wild goose chase for a rule that isn't there, just state a dimension".
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 08:35:51 AM »
In 2018 Glen Van Sant was running a 1.2 fl. oz. tank. He said it was too much fuel. 1 fl. oz. should get the job done if you don't fiddle with the needle.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2019, 06:37:18 PM »
Sorry, no help on that one. I don't use tip ballast on my speedsters. Weight is the enemy.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 07:31:38 AM by Bob Heywood »
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bill Hughes

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2019, 12:26:15 PM »
Hi,

My Model has a 1.25 oz hard tank. Yes it is a little big. So what. If need be it allows me to start the engine and walk to the handle.  If not, the model makes a few more laps.  My model does NOT have any wing tip weight.   With the Sub-Rudder Design you do not need any.  The model is sold as a rock on the wires. 
I guess I'm one of the so-called heavy hitters who have taken up .21 Profile Proto.  I was just doing a small part to support Glen VanSant and NASS.  It is much more fun to compete than just taking about it.  So, all you guys should build one of these. It is easy, they fly good and do not pull to hard.

Bill Hughes

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 21 profile proto
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2019, 12:52:38 PM »
Are the controls exposed like in 1/2A Porto?

Best,  DennisT


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