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Author Topic: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.  (Read 252 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« on: June 19, 2025, 11:41:00 AM »
While doing my taxi lap at The Brodak, about 3/4 of the way around the circle, my landing gear was swallowed-up by one of the big cracks in the asphalt.  I was given ZEROs in BOTH taxi lap and throttle operation.

Do you of the scale higherarchy this is correct? My throttle worked perfectly for:
1. Dead stop before takeoff
2. Takeoff
3. High flight
4 Touch and
5. Go
6. Overshoot
7. Landing with dead stop
8. 3/4 of the taxi lap.
Due to bad field conditions I was unable to demonstrate:
9. Stop at the end of taxi lap
10.  Engine shutoff.

I don't expect the full 10 points, but I do expect credit for the eight things that worked OK.  If I was judging a thing and a contestant did eight out of ten things correctly, I would give him 8 points.  Especially if the missing elements were clearly caused by field conditions.

The same goes for the taxi lap.  I don't expect a 10, but something for the effort would be fair.
 
Paul Smith

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2025, 08:14:59 PM »
  You could argue the points thing all day long, but what should have happened is that you should have been given a reflight. Contest management or the ED should have inspected the surface and repaired anything that may interrupt an official flight. Simple pieces of duct tape and sheet metal could have covered the gap sufficiently for a model to roll over it. I would have protested the judgement.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2025, 08:45:32 PM »
I'm not trying to fight a particular ruling, I would still be in 2nd place even with the full 20 points.

I'm just asking the masters of the event if FULL loss of points is the standard scoring of an option (throttle) which comes into play in every element of the flight.  If the answer is "YES" I would expect it to be applied to others in the future.

My action plan has two parts.  1. In the future I will bring bigger models with bigger tires to this contest. 2. I'm considering bringing my 8-pound compactor and a 50-pound bag of asphalt to the contest next year.  Put others to work smoothing the cracks.

I'm still interested in what the elders of the event think about partial credit or "all or nothing" for throttle & taxi lap.
Paul Smith

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2025, 10:17:21 AM »
OK - I will wade into this one.  Let's start by reviewing the rulebook language:

9.8.3. Engine and Motor Control (Option).
This option requires the contestant to demonstrate dependable, scale-like engine(s)/motor(s) control throughout the entire official flight. If the model is equipped with diverse types, or widely diverse sizes of similar power plants (e.g., gas and electric, or all gas such as with two (2) large (.40 cu.in.) and two (2) very small (.010 cu.in.) the contestant must demonstrate to the judges that all power plant units are contributing significantly to the models performance. All engine(s)/motor(s) must operate through the entire flight and during the taxi lap if this option is called for unless the aircraft routinely had shutdown engine(s) in flight or on taxi. If the contestant desires to demonstrate engine(s)/motor(s) run-up prior to takeoff, a helper or stooge may be used to hold the model. Engine(s)/motor(s) shutoff is called and executed with the model at stationary at the end of the flight.
ERRORS:
1. If demonstration is made, the beginning and ending of scale operation were not called out.
2. An engine or motor quits before release for takeoff.
3. An engine or motor quits before flight is completed.
4. Engine throttle or motor speed changes are not smooth.
5. Major engine throttle or motor speed changes during flight not required by an option being flown or wind conditions.
6. Engine(s) or motor(s) do not stop when engine/motor cutoff is called.
7. Engine or motor cutoff is not called.

I spoke with Richard Schneider (AMA Scale Nats Chief Judge) and we agree - we would award points in proportion to the quality of the the portion of the option already demonstrated.  In other words, the Taxi example could score up to 7 or 8 points, depending on the quality of the already completed taxi.  Credit should be given for the quality of options or portions thereof already demonstrated.  The intent of the rules is to give the judges and the contestants criteria and guidance for performing and evaluating a realistic flight.  Minimum failures should have minimum penalties.  Major penalties should be reserved for major failures, such as omitted or completely blown (unrecognizable) options.

FYI - I have been considering holding an online judging seminar for CL Scale (both static and flight).  The RC Scale folks have done this annually (face-to-face in Muncie) and believe that it has helped in more consistent scoring. 
ANY INTEREST IN AN ONLINE SCORING SCORING SEMINAR FOR CL SCALE??? 

Pete

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2025, 11:01:48 AM »
OK - I will wade into this one.  Let's start by reviewing the rulebook language:

9.8.3. Engine and Motor Control (Option).
This option requires the contestant to demonstrate dependable, scale-like engine(s)/motor(s) control throughout the entire official flight. If the model is equipped with diverse types, or widely diverse sizes of similar power plants (e.g., gas and electric, or all gas such as with two (2) large (.40 cu.in.) and two (2) very small (.010 cu.in.) the contestant must demonstrate to the judges that all power plant units are contributing significantly to the models performance. All engine(s)/motor(s) must operate through the entire flight and during the taxi lap if this option is called for unless the aircraft routinely had shutdown engine(s) in flight or on taxi. If the contestant desires to demonstrate engine(s)/motor(s) run-up prior to takeoff, a helper or stooge may be used to hold the model. Engine(s)/motor(s) shutoff is called and executed with the model at stationary at the end of the flight.
ERRORS:
1. If demonstration is made, the beginning and ending of scale operation were not called out.
2. An engine or motor quits before release for takeoff.
3. An engine or motor quits before flight is completed.
4. Engine throttle or motor speed changes are not smooth.
5. Major engine throttle or motor speed changes during flight not required by an option being flown or wind conditions.
6. Engine(s) or motor(s) do not stop when engine/motor cutoff is called.
7. Engine or motor cutoff is not called.

I spoke with Richard Schneider (AMA Scale Nats Chief Judge) and we agree - we would award points in proportion to the quality of the the portion of the option already demonstrated.  In other words, the Taxi example could score up to 7 or 8 points, depending on the quality of the already completed taxi.  Credit should be given for the quality of options or portions thereof already demonstrated.  The intent of the rules is to give the judges and the contestants criteria and guidance for performing and evaluating a realistic flight.  Minimum failures should have minimum penalties.  Major penalties should be reserved for major failures, such as omitted or completely blown (unrecognizable) options.

FYI - I have been considering holding an online judging seminar for CL Scale (both static and flight).  The RC Scale folks have done this annually (face-to-face in Muncie) and believe that it has helped in more consistent scoring. 
ANY INTEREST IN AN ONLINE SCORING SCORING SEMINAR FOR CL SCALE??? 

Pete

   Why did he get a zero when the issue was due to something beyond his control? I would have walked the circle if I suspected any issues due to cracks or anything that might interfere with my flight, and then aske for some remediation of the condition.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2025, 12:20:06 PM »
   Why did he get a zero when the issue was due to something beyond his control? I would have walked the circle if I suspected any issues due to cracks or anything that might interfere with my flight, and then aske for some remediation of the condition.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
Dan - I am just answering the question "in general, what if I do not complete my taxi, is it partial or zero score".  Yes it is up to the CD to assure circle conditions allow for the contest to proceed. 

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2025, 06:03:09 AM »
OK - I will wade into this one.  Let's start by reviewing the rulebook language:

9.8.3. Engine and Motor Control (Option).
This option requires the contestant to demonstrate dependable, scale-like engine(s)/motor(s) control throughout the entire official flight. If the model is equipped with diverse types, or widely diverse sizes of similar power plants (e.g., gas and electric, or all gas such as with two (2) large (.40 cu.in.) and two (2) very small (.010 cu.in.) the contestant must demonstrate to the judges that all power plant units are contributing significantly to the models performance. All engine(s)/motor(s) must operate through the entire flight and during the taxi lap if this option is called for unless the aircraft routinely had shutdown engine(s) in flight or on taxi. If the contestant desires to demonstrate engine(s)/motor(s) run-up prior to takeoff, a helper or stooge may be used to hold the model. Engine(s)/motor(s) shutoff is called and executed with the model at stationary at the end of the flight.
ERRORS:
1. If demonstration is made, the beginning and ending of scale operation were not called out.
2. An engine or motor quits before release for takeoff.
3. An engine or motor quits before flight is completed.
4. Engine throttle or motor speed changes are not smooth.
5. Major engine throttle or motor speed changes during flight not required by an option being flown or wind conditions.
6. Engine(s) or motor(s) do not stop when engine/motor cutoff is called.
7. Engine or motor cutoff is not called.

I spoke with Richard Schneider (AMA Scale Nats Chief Judge) and we agree - we would award points in proportion to the quality of the the portion of the option already demonstrated.  In other words, the Taxi example could score up to 7 or 8 points, depending on the quality of the already completed taxi.  Credit should be given for the quality of options or portions thereof already demonstrated.  The intent of the rules is to give the judges and the contestants criteria and guidance for performing and evaluating a realistic flight.  Minimum failures should have minimum penalties.  Major penalties should be reserved for major failures, such as omitted or completely blown (unrecognizable) options.

FYI - I have been considering holding an online judging seminar for CL Scale (both static and flight).  The RC Scale folks have done this annually (face-to-face in Muncie) and believe that it has helped in more consistent scoring. 
ANY INTEREST IN AN ONLINE SCORING SCORING SEMINAR FOR CL SCALE??? 

Pete

Thank you, Pete.

That's the answer I was hoping for.  As I wish it to be, if the model craps out 3/4 of the way through the taxi lap, for ANY reason:  bad pavement, ran of fuel, pilot error, etc, rather than zeroing-out the whole 20 points, the contestant should get some credit for what has has achieved.  Not necessarily 75%, but not an absolute zero that would drop him into last place.

In the world of CL Scale, as I have experienced it, judges always work in the 8-to-10 point range. 
Zero should be reserved for not doing any part of an option.
Paul Smith

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: Throttle control? Partial credit or all-or-nothing.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2025, 06:32:53 AM »
I have been considering holding an online judging seminar for CL Scale (both static and flight judging).  The RC Scale folks have done this annually (face-to-face in Muncie) and believe that it has helped in more consistent scoring.
ANY INTEREST IN AN ONLINE SCORING SCORING SEMINAR FOR CL SCALE???  Please let me know.

Pete


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