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Author Topic: twin engine points  (Read 1495 times)

Offline bob whitney

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twin engine points
« on: February 07, 2021, 03:13:20 PM »
i was told that on the next scale board vote that they were going to drop the multi engine points from five to 2 in 1/2 A scale,dose anyone know anything about this RAD
rad racer

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2021, 06:07:37 PM »
Your information is correct. The board voted unanimously to drop from 5 to 2 points
Blessings
Allen

Offline Ron Duly

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2021, 10:42:31 PM »
Please share with us the reasoning behind the change, both fore and against.  Thanks

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 07:00:15 AM »
FYI...
1/2A is an "entry" level event to draw new pilots into C/L scale competition.
After looking at the past three years in scale contest around the country and the NASA Classic and the US Nationals only twin engine models were winning. We determined that 5 points was to high for the scoring system, so we lowered award points from 5 to 2 point. (still awarding something for the added work and building of a multi engine aircraft)
Our focus was to create a low budget, easy to build, easy to fly competition scale airplane that anyone could enjoy flying in a scale contests.
Up until a few years ago 1/2A scale was not an AMA official event.
As for the pros and cons, the only debate was the amount of points to award, 2 points was the unanimously decision.

Blessings
Allen

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 08:46:54 AM »
FYI...
1/2A is an "entry" level event to draw new pilots into C/L scale competition.
After looking at the past three years in scale contest around the country and the NASA Classic and the US Nationals only twin engine models were winning. We determined that 5 points was to high for the scoring system, so we lowered award points from 5 to 2 point. (still awarding something for the added work and building of a multi engine aircraft)
Our focus was to create a low budget, easy to build, easy to fly competition scale airplane that anyone could enjoy flying in a scale contests.
Up until a few years ago 1/2A scale was not an AMA official event.
As for the pros and cons, the only debate was the amount of points to award, 2 points was the unanimously decision.

Blessings
Allen


In the rare occasions where the rules are actually applied properly, the flight points are actually the TOTAL of TWO flights, so the two engine points are really 5 x 2 = 10 for two engines.,  The proposal would cut this to 2 x 2 = 4.

Paul Smith

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2021, 09:31:27 AM »
Paul,you are correct on one count, 2+2=4: and the 5+5=10 cutting it from 10 to 4 to the total flight score.
It is not a proposal, the rule was passed and accepted by the rules committee. Iím not sure if Tony has posted in the rules book, Iíll check on that.
Blessings
Allen

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 09:33:02 AM »
1/2A Scale is the most misjudged event in modeling.  This is because, rather than standard 100 + 100 static and flight judging in the other classes, 1/2A has a unique 80 + 45 + 45 = 170 system. 

The total score is static (80) plus the TOTAL of two flights (90).  Or if time does not permit, one flight score doubled (also 90 points).  I don't recall this ever having been done correctly.

Rather than just tweak one number, we need to fix the whole problem by shifting 1/2a to the regular 100 + 100 system.   Static could easily simply use the same score sheet as Profile.

I would suggest a 100 point flight score adjusted for the lack of throttle control.  For example; 20 points each for takeoff, high flight, low flight, and landing.  20 bonus points would be available for multi-engine and/or aerobatics.  That would be consistent with all other events that offer an avenue to full marks either with or without multiple engines.

Paul Smith

Offline Trostle

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 10:14:13 AM »
1/2A Scale is the most misjudged event in modeling.  This is because, rather than standard 100 + 100 static and flight judging in the other classes, 1/2A has a unique 80 + 45 + 45 = 170 system. 

The total score is static (80) plus the TOTAL of two flights (90).  Or if time does not permit, one flight score doubled (also 90 points).  I don't recall this ever having been done correctly.

Rather than just tweak one number, we need to fix the whole problem by shifting 1/2a to the regular 100 + 100 system.   Static could easily simply use the same score sheet as Profile.

I would suggest a 100 point flight score adjusted for the lack of throttle control.  For example; 20 points each for takeoff, high flight, low flight, and landing.  20 bonus points would be available for multi-engine and/or aerobatics.  That would be consistent with all other events that offer an avenue to full marks either with or without multiple engines.

Make a proposal.  Proposals for this Covid delayed change cycle can still be submitted prior to this coming March 15.

Keith

Offline bob whitney

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 12:05:52 PM »
if a wood butcher as myself can build a competitive plane on the first try ,i see no need to DUMN down the event any more . i would think that Fun Scale would be an entry level event seeing as u don't even need to be the builder of the model.fly and have fun, Rad.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 12:25:18 PM »
Make a proposal.  Proposals for this Covid delayed change cycle can still be submitted prior to this coming March 15.

Keith

Thank you.  I will.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 12:30:09 PM »
if a wood butcher as myself can build a competitive plane on the first try ,i see no need to DUMN down the event any more . i would think that Fun Scale would be an entry level event seeing as u don't even need to be the builder of the model.fly and have fun, Rad.

There are NO "beginner" events in modeling except for beginner stunt.  There will never be a beginner as long as experts are permitted to enter.
The PAMPA stunt classes limit a person to one ability class.  In all other events contestants feel required to win every class.
In the early 1970's, they didn't let the Class I & II carrier experts enter Profile, but they got that rule set aside, along with the stock plain bearing engines.
Paul Smith

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2021, 05:27:19 PM »
Stir stir,
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 06:13:36 PM by Allen Goff »

Online 944_Jim

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 05:36:41 PM »
Please understand I don't mean the following to sound crass, but I'm curious, and I may actually be missing the mark. I reread this thread a few times before throwing my $0.01 in.

Also, I have no dog in this hunt (no AMA membership, no club affiliation, non-dues-paying private "hobbyist," perfectionist in the classic stunt held in awe and spectacle as the "Figure-9"), but I suspect the 1/2A class lands squarely in my lane. That is, I'm that guy that "never competes, builds small often, so beginner class would be the first class I would consider entering."

A while back I picked up a vintage Cox throttle handle and three line bellcrank (originally kitted on one of the .020 plastic planes), just so I could investigate how "Ole LM Cox" did it small. I enjoyed the "lesson."
My expectation is to build a 1/2A model, like a Brodak Wildcat/Mustang/Zero around a throttled Norvel or AP. The concept is still in pieces in my trunk of unbuilt kits (and still, I doubt I'll ever go compete). My inexperience suggests I stay away from any stunt until I feel comfortable with managing a throttle in take-off, level flight, touch and go, and landing.

Having said all that...why eliminate throttle or twins points?

If a newbie entrant managed to build a throttled model, and flew it successfully, then why should he NOT get the bonus...and even a few more points if a twin? Frankly, two points doesn't seem like enough for either option.

A consideration would be to some put some twin points on appearance, and some twin points on the flight...if the two engines killed a flight, then the modeller lost points for his effort. If one engine dies in flight, yet he manages to complete the flight, he should get something! If nothing else, award the prize and promote immediately to the next stage/level of competition.

I don't know how a throttle phase is incorporated in the "big leagues," but the newbie could leap ahead of his peers with a throttled touch-and-go for flying points.

A rank beginner would most likely be building a single engine profile model, as would most of his competition. A skilled builder, but beginner to the field should be awarded extra for the effort. His effort should require proof of concept for the extra points, which is why I see no error in hanging the twins points distributed across being pretty AND being functional, and points for a functional throttle too.

Maybe I'm over-thinking it (as an adult), but does beginner imply youth AND inexperience. Or inexperience only?
Or is the beginner class one of those trophies awarded to each entrant for showing up and slinging a rock?

I suspect I missed something...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 06:14:44 PM by 944_Jim »

Online 944_Jim

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 06:27:47 PM »
Ok...so I studied the thread a bit more. I missed the fact that a beginner can compete with a model he didn't build. This makes me wonder why award any build points/twins at all? After all, the beginner only needs $75 for the AMA membership, an entry fee, and rent a model for some time.

Or did I miss something again?

Offline Trostle

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2021, 06:42:19 PM »

Please understand I don't mean the following to sound crass, but I'm curious, and I may actually be missing the mark. I reread this thread a few times before throwing my $0.01 in.
-
-
Having said all that...why eliminate throttle or twins points?
-
-
Ok...so I studied the thread a bit more. I missed the fact.that a beginner can compete with a model he didn't build. This makes me wonder why award any build points/twins at all?

Or did I miss something again?

OK, if you want to fly something at the "beginner" level but still want more points for another engine or more and want to use a throttle, then the current 1/2A event is not really designed for you.  Take that airplane you want to have a throttle on it and enter the Profile Scale or the Sport Scale events.  Be aware, there are some really serious entries at the Nationals level in these events, but at the local level, just having something to enter and fly to demonstrate your throttle and the extra engine could be competitive against the other suspected entries, which there will not be very many and probably not the caliber that might be seen at the Nats.   So do it and have fun.  Besides, currently, there are not many 1/2A scale events held at the local level anyway.  And you will be fortunate to find very many more contests at the local level to have any scale events.  But in some areas, there seems to be some growing interest and participation.

Besides, there is a perhaps a long leap for you to just build a "sport" type model that you are describing for yourself and getting to the point of actually entering a contest where you can demonstrate your throttle and/or multiple engine operations.  Might want to go through that process before you start making suggestions to change the rules.

Keith




Offline Allen Goff

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2021, 08:12:54 PM »
Thanks Keith.well put.

Online 944_Jim

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2021, 08:53:20 PM »
Thanks Mr. Keith,

Considering the way you put it, it still leaves me scratching my head. Again, I'm trying to understand the premise, not change (or keep) the rules.

Thanks to you, I now understand this to be beginner scale model flying, by proving the scale model can be flown by a beginner flier. I also now know there are significantly more variations above what I assumed was an entry-level challenge, with much more stratification between it and full-on NATs/PAMPA style flying. I appreciate the eye-opener, despite the delivery of your last paragraph.

I guess what I'm looking for is a definition of the intended/targeted group of participants. That may help me understand why the original differentiation in the points system to other contests, and the resultant change.

Which brings me back to my confusion...
So why allow the beginner flyer to accumulate static points using a model he didn't build?

What prevents "Johnny Deep-pockets" from competing with a contract-built "top shelf" model and win just by getting it in the air and back down? Or is this Beginner contest more a Dad/Son entry level like some of the Sunday School Pine Wood Derby car races I've been to?

Or am I still missing the point? It wouldn't be the first time I've been told I'm overthinking something.

Regarding your suggestions/final paragraph to me:
There is no competitive venue near me, nor do I have any flying buddies. I have built a twin, successfully flown it high (even on one engine, yet low), learned a bit about designing fuel systems around a twin, and even successfully re-kitted the same plane. LL~
Unfortunately I'm resigned to standing in awe of these contests and admiration of the contestants as I did in my youth...by watching/learning from others either through conversation, pictures, words, and/or video. Then there is the other aspect of enjoying the hobby...learning by trying new things.

While I may not compete with others, I do compete with myself. Each of my models is a bit "more" than the last one. I know I'll never fly anywhere approaching the level of most of this community, let alone fly competitively even in a sanctioned beginner event.

I got bored with 1/2A slabbies and Roundie-Roundie. My goal this summer is to attempt the OTS pattern with a UKIE .35, then a BHM Challenger, then a 3-wire throttled Tom Tom may be later.

I really like the build, I enjoy the flight. Watching fine art dance before me is thrilling! I still get butterflies in my belly on each maiden flight. But I'm on fixed space and time. That means I keep no favorite airplane. However each airplane is responsible for teaching me something for the next one, and I feel a responsibility to learn from each airplane such that it was sacrificed as an educational tool, not just cast off as trash for taking up space in my hobby closet.

Why am I paying attention to this thread?
I'm still a sucker for 1/2A models. My current 1/2A build is semi-scale...that is a Guillow's Typhoon 906 kit, but scratch-bashed over a Lil Jumpin Bean wing with a 25% upscaled stab/elevator (factory wood still in the Guillow's box). So far, I think it looks good. I bet it will be better than Roundie-Roundie. I will be ecstatic if it does crisp wing-overs, loops and inverted. My childhood Lil Satan and Stuntman 23 could do those, even with me at the controls back then.

"Me and my Typhoon" is why I started asking questions in this thread...not that I plan on competing, but just to know how to gauge where I am in the hobby. Of course, I can also look at the mountains of evidence discarded over the last few years...the slabbies, the antique NOS built-up wing profiles, the shattered Norvel from my Mosquito...they also serve as benchmarks in my eyes.
I know I'd be pissed to compete with my model only to lose against Johnny Deep-pockets because his model was "more scale."

In the end, I'm enjoying a hobby I discovered as a young boy, but couldn't afford, and still drooling and dreaming over the videos and pictures of true stars in my eyes...you guys!



Offline bob whitney

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PM »
Jim, u are confusing 1/2A scale with Fun Scale which i referenced to as a possable beginner event as u dont need to build your own plane. the AMA web site has all the scale rules,RAD
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: twin engine points
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2021, 07:50:05 AM »
Jim, u are confusing 1/2A scale with Fun Scale which i referenced to as a possible beginner event as u don't need to build your own plane. the AMA web site has all the scale rules,RAD

Fun and 1/2A are the exact opposites on each other.   
Fun was 100 flying points and only 10 static, so it's mainly a pilotage event with minimal value for static.
1/2A is the other way around.  Other than takeoff and landing, 1/2A has minimal actual flight points.  A automatic 20 points for level laps and 10 for twin engine.  20 for points for "realism of flight" which is pretty hard to see in an unthrottled 1/2A control line plane.


Paul Smith


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