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Author Topic: B-36  (Read 2884 times)

Online John Rist

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B-36
« on: May 30, 2013, 04:35:14 PM »
I always wanted to do a B-36.  But I think the cockpit would be a bit much  n~

This is a 360 panorama of the flight engineers station on a B-36: Six reciprocating R-4360s and four J-47 jets to keep an eye on, plus fuel, pressurization, hydraulics, electrical, and other systems.  Steam gauge heaven!

 

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/062/B-36J%20Engineer.html
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: B-36
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 06:39:20 PM »
For cryin' out loud, John, build the blamed thing and forget about the cockpit - just do a sport scale or a fun scale!!!  Ya gotta do it, ya just gotta!  I wanna see it!!! #^ #^ #^
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

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Re: B-36
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 08:14:43 PM »
Have to be ideal for this .049 multi scale thing . Long nose for the lead to balance the rear engines .
should fly o.k. , & not a lot of bother to build .
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 09:46:34 AM by Matt Spencer »

Online John Rist

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Re: B-36
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »
Come on guys this build would be way beyond my pay grade.  I am sure it could be done - especially if it was an electric however not on my building budget!   n~
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: B-36
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 02:17:27 PM »
Come on guys this build would be way beyond my pay grade.  I am sure it could be done - especially if it was an electric however not on my building budget!   n~

HI john,

I remember watching a C/L B-36 flying years ago.  6 McCoy RH .19s with no throttle control.  It was an Eureka (or one of its iterations) so I do not know exactly how "scale" it was.

One of those would definitely not be beyond your building skills.  And it would be easy enough for you to make it electric.  2.4ghz. for throttle, etc., ??

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: B-36
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 07:59:47 PM »
Two engines to keep it simple, the others could have free spinning props. This has been done before.

Charles
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: B-36
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 08:47:44 PM »
Two engines to keep it simple, the others could have free spinning props. This has been done before.

Charles

Where?  When?  By whom?

Facts, please.

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: B-36
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 10:51:57 PM »

 I'm not sure if this B-36 ever got finished, but check this out...

 http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/JimAron/library/Current%20Projects/Hydra%20B36?sort=4&page=1

 
 Incredible model, but too bad it's 'lectric. :(
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Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: B-36
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 07:58:10 AM »
I'm not sure if this B-36 ever got finished, but check this out...

 http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/JimAron/library/Current%20Projects/Hydra%20B36?sort=4&page=1

 
 Incredible model, but too bad it's 'lectric. :(

All that effort in the wing, too bad it is profile.

Jim Fruit

Online John Rist

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Re: B-36
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 08:18:35 AM »
 
 Incredible model, but too bad it's 'lectric. :(

'lectric?  Looks like a nitro burner to me.  As I see it is a throttle wide open engine, (engine picture shows a CL carb) with engine cutoff control.

 :!
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Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: B-36
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 03:28:16 PM »
I saw two B-36s in C/L Scale at the 70 or 72 Glenview Nats. I do believe one had a cockpit detail while the other had painted windows. I understand both flew well. One was built by a USAF NCO team member by the name of Gordon Ford. I believe he also campaigned a C-141 in C/L scale. All of his airplanes flew well. Saw them both at a Dayton, Ohio contest in the early to mid seventies. Have some snap shots somewhere.
Build it but not with electric. Six IC's sound a lot better.
Wayne
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: B-36
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 07:56:30 PM »
That was being done by our own Jim Aron a couple of years ago.  Forgot all about it until I seen the pics.  Haven't did a search on here or even on Stuka Stunt,  But I do remember seeing it, the photos back then.
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Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: B-36
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 10:47:08 AM »
In case someone needs a little inspiration to build one, here's an incredible video showing pre takoff check & actual take off. Beautifully clear photography ..................

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Offline Trostle

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Re: B-36
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 05:00:25 PM »
A friend dug this up for me.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160640
http://www.trapletshop.com/za/p/11447/ford-tri-motor
http://www.rcmplans.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1805


Charles.

OK, so what are you showing us?  You stated in an earlier post in reference to a B-36 model under construction:

"Two engines to keep it simple, the others could have free spinning props. This has been done before.

Charles"

Then Mike asked:

"Where?  When?  By whom?

"Facts, please."

Then you responded with the above items that show a Ford Tri Motor, the first with three electric motors.

So how does that respond to Mike's question??????

Inquiring minds want to know what you are talking about.

KT


Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: B-36
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 06:00:42 PM »
In case someone needs a little inspiration to build one, here's an incredible video showing pre takoff check & actual take off. Beautifully clear photography ..................



Jimmy Stewart movie. Strateg Air Command. I think he actually flew B-36's and B-47's.
Wayne
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: B-36
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
I'm not sure if this B-36 ever got finished, but check this out...

 http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/JimAron/library/Current%20Projects/Hydra%20B36?sort=4&page=1

 
 Incredible model, but too bad it's 'lectric. :(

I recall somebody axing Jimby about the B-36 at the Outback in Eugene...like, "was he working on it?", etc. 'Parently not. But it is definitely not 'lectric. The wires is for the remote glowplug hookups, I think.   H^^ Steve
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: B-36
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 06:51:04 PM »

. . . So how does that respond to Mike's question?????? . . .
KT
====================================================

It doesn't.

As usual, he was off on a tangent.  (Consider the source.)
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: B-36
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 08:10:11 PM »
====================================================

It doesn't.

As usual, he was off on a tangent.  (Consider the source.)


Are you saying its impossible? I think Randy Smith had a free wheeling counter rotating prop. This is not out of possibility to have a simulated 3 or 4 engine plane using 1 or 2 engines and 2 free wheeling props. So how is Charles off base? Guess what he's not!

There seems to be a few who have a hard on for Charles. What is the problem?
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: B-36
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2013, 08:45:53 PM »
. . . What is the problem?
==================================================

Quite simply, the question involved the B-36...and he referenced a Ford Tri-Motor.  Different animal entirely.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: B-36
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »
==================================================

Quite simply, the question involved the B-36...and he referenced a Ford Tri-Motor.  Different animal entirely.


Anything we do in control line will work. Will it be a competitive stunt plane NO. Will it fly yes. So whats the issue? If I wanted to build a spruce goose with is a 8 engine plane. Could I power it with 2 engines and make the other 6 dummy's? Probably. How good it flies is the question. He said it has been done before. It has, EVRYTHING has been done before. There is nothing brand new. Everyone needs to stop being so critical on every little thing.

Spelling,grammar Ideas etc. Who cares?

I do not want to ever hear again someone call us Stunt Anger because of nonesens. None of it matters.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: B-36
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2013, 10:22:20 PM »
  The problem with two props pushing and four windmilling is the increadable drag the pinwheels cause. Two engines wouldn't be able to overcome it. And Randy's set up was a freewheeling prop just behind the powered prop, and was acting as a stator to straighten out the airflow of the propwash. Worked pretty well from what I saw of it, just not too practical.  As far as I know, there has never been a C/L scale model or any other kind, that had mulitple free wheeling props that actually worked. That is why the have folding props on high performance rubber models going all the way back to the 30's.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: B-36
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2013, 10:22:27 PM »
Where?  When?  By whom?

Facts, please.



2 engines  will fly a  """model B-36 """"  , if your in the air with the B-36  you best not try that

Randy

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Re: B-36
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2013, 10:25:49 PM »
Are you saying its impossible? I think Randy Smith had a free wheeling counter rotating prop. This is not out of possibility to have a simulated 3 or 4 engine plane using 1 or 2 engines and 2 free wheeling props. So how is Charles off base? Guess what he's not!

There seems to be a few who have a hard on for Charles. What is the problem?


Nope  the  prop was driven, fluid drive, the same principal that drives your car with an auto Trans  .  it only free wheeled  when the engine shut off... , It went from zero to right at 9500 RPM in less than a second..
 BUt YOu are correct about you can have freewheeling props on a multi to simulate mo motors !!     ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Randy

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: B-36
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2013, 05:29:27 AM »
Don't forget the 4 micro-fans!

 "two turning, two burning, two smoking, two joking, and two more unaccounted for"
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Offline Trostle

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Re: B-36
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2013, 07:46:28 AM »
Are you saying its impossible? I think Randy Smith had a free wheeling counter rotating prop. This is not out of possibility to have a simulated 3 or 4 engine plane using 1 or 2 engines and 2 free wheeling props. So how is Charles off base? Guess what he's not!

There seems to be a few who have a hard on for Charles. What is the problem?

Robert,

In all due respect, I think you did not understand my comment relative to the references made by Charles to the Ford Trimotor.  This thread is about the B-36.  Indeed, other multi-engine  models have been made and successfully flown in CL, FF, and RC with dummy engines and free wheeling props.  My comments did not dispute that fact.  Charles chose to show photos of Ford Trimotor models, at least one of them had 3 electric motors installed, that one could assume were not free wheeling their propellers.  What I would be really interested in is any reference/photos of any model of a B-36 which was flown with dummy engines/free wheeling props.  Any flying B-36 model I have seen in the magazines or actually witnessed have always used 6 engines/motors with functioning propellers installed.  I would be really interested in a B-36 model design that was built with dummy engines/props.

KT
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:53:52 AM by Trostle »

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: B-36
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 08:31:58 PM »
Let's recap:

This thread dealt with the B-36.  My question concerned anyone having flown a CL B-36 with free-wheeling props.

A reply was presented which referenced an entirely different aircraft.

There is no doubt that several other designs have been flown with free-wheeling props...including the Tri-Motor built by the well-known Stu Richmond.

Some people got bent out of shape because they failed to understand that my original question (plus a response by Keith Trostle) concerned only the B-36.

Analogy:  This is like someone asking about a '57 Chevy, and receiving a rebuttal concerning a '55 Ford.

Does everyone get this?  Or is it just too difficult for some minds?

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Offline Trostle

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Re: B-36
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 12:12:54 AM »
Kieth,

(Clip)

It's not me you make fool out of.

Charles


It is not often seen on this forum that a person calls another a fool.  Robert runs a pretty tight ship on this - his forum.  However, considering the source here, I am not offended.

Keith
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 04:01:54 PM by Trostle »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: B-36
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2013, 09:22:27 AM »
Hey Keith I know your reputation as well as the others and I am trying to be nice.   There was a kit of the B-36 years ago, but it never showed free wheeling props.   In fact if I can get a hold of the owner of the kit in Topeka I would love to have his kit he started.   He said it would be too much trouble to finish and fly.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: B-36
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2013, 10:34:12 AM »
Dan,

Gee, thanks for that!!

And all this time I thought those folding props were built that way to prevent damage to them upon landing? Imagine?

    Well, they didn't have the internet back then to take up their time with, so they had plenty of time to carve props. They had no trouble carving props to save money, even for gas models. It only takes a couple of hours if you know what you are doing, and it saves the 50 cents of so a new prop costs. Scale rubber models have used folding props on them to improve the glide, and on models that fly better than others, a free wheeling prop can be considered as a method of de-thermalizing. Even high performance gas powered free flight models use folding props to get the slip stream cleaned up

Dan,

Inquiring minds want to know what you are talking about?

"As far as you know?" "Free wheeling props that actually worked." Worked? What's that mean? They did work, as free spinning or wheeling props! That's their purpose?

Did you go to any of those links and read any of that material?

You're not recognizing Stu Richmond's efforts?

I strongly believe Stu Richmond's model of his Tri-Motor worked well enough for him to win the event he built the model for. Not to mention others who have possibly built his model also. Someone must have built one? He designed it in 1987! That's a few years ago.

So, I for one, know there are models using free spinning props successfully. I knew this years ago, that's why I brought it up! The method is a great way to simplify construction.

Stu Richmonds's efforts are living proof. Many Kudos to Stu Richmond.

I'm sure there are other models with free spinning props, just track them down!

Charles
       Well, Chuck, I went to my files to read that article, even though the topic was B-36s, and it's not where it's supposed to be. Some times you lend stuff out and it doesn't come back. Old Stu may have had free wheeling props on the model for the article, but I'll bet he didn't actually fly it much with them.  The Ford Tri-Motor has an incredible amount of drag as it is , without adding to it with two big discs doing no work on on the wings. In the case that was being discussed, the B-36, you might as well have four parachutes hanging off the trailing edges of the wings, and that model would have to fly much faster that the Tri-Motor, and the increased speed also increases drag. You know what a feathered prop is for , correct? Ever hear of a runaway prop on a full scale airplane? This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.  I just consulted with a friend of mine on a B-17 he built, that uses two engines, and for static display, he installs two more props on the outboard nacelles. They are removed for flying because of the drag, and there can even be a heck of a harmonic vibration from the spinning props that can cause problems. This is typically what is done with multi engine planes to simplify the construction and operation of the model when you can't for some reason use a full compliment of engines. One purpose of picking a multi-engine model for a subject to model is the extra points awarded in scoring, but I do believe you have to demonstrate that all engines can and are running for flight points, and in the case of the B-36, and not knowing the exact rules, what bonus points would be awarded for only having two of the six engine operable. That is what I mean by saying "that actually works." And airplane, to me , is the sum of all of it's parts, and anything that goes into the air should be fulfilling a purpose and doing some work. Sure, you could do it, but there are far more reasons not to do do it than there are pluses for it.  Every once in a while, you have to land a model dead stick, and those spinning props where ever they are certainly do no help in a situation where you are running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time. You have to notice, if you read the available model publications that are currently available, and the older magazines, or go the the Nationals and other scale contests, that this is NOT a common practice, and probably for a lot more reasons than what I have included here. You mangaged to dig up one example, but I'll bet you will have a hard time finding another.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: B-36
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2013, 01:47:00 PM »
John Rist,

I removed my Posts, except the one related to your Thread.

I apologize for the replies and comments that have taken your Thread to an area of "off topic."

Possibly others will do the same, in hopes to bring back the quality of your Thread.

I see your primary interest is scale modeling. It's a great area of the hobby to have interest in!

Charles

 
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: B-36
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2013, 07:57:39 PM »
Jimmy Stewart movie. Strategic Air Command. I think he actually flew B-36's and B-47's.
Wayne


Correctomundo, Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart.
On the B-36 they didn't always get all ten engines started and they aborted a lot of training flights.  That's one reason why a reliable electric model would be unrealistic.

In the movie, Jimmy reported to duty at Carswell AFB in Fort Worth and his new CO instantly took him on a little joy ride - to Alaska and back. His little wifely was pissed that he was late for din-din.
Paul Smith

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: B-36
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 09:54:48 PM »
   I think Jimmy Stewart had stick time in most Air Force Bombers. I believe he retired as a General in the Air Force Reserve, did he not? I remember reading rumors that he even flew B-52 bomber runs on North VietNam. I have a copy of a video tape here some place where he taxis up on camera in a B-58 Hustler. He always gave a very realistic performance in all of the aviation related movies he did, in my opinion. The scene at the end of Strategic Air Command where he has to land in bad weather in the B-47, he is really working the yoke and rudder pedals for all he was worth in a very realistic manor, probably because he had stick time in the airplane. He definitely fit the definition of "One of a Kind." And he was great actor also !!!!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: B-36
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2013, 10:11:26 PM »
       Well, Chuck, I went to my files to read that article, even though the topic was B-36s, and it's not where it's supposed to be. Some times you lend stuff out and it doesn't come back. Old Stu may have had free wheeling props on the model for the article, but I'll bet he didn't actually fly it much with them.  The Ford Tri-Motor has an incredible amount of drag as it is , without adding to it with two big discs doing no work on on the wings. In the case that was being discussed, the B-36, you might as well have four parachutes hanging off the trailing edges of the wings, and that model would have to fly much faster that the Tri-Motor, and the increased speed also increases drag. You know what a feathered prop is for , correct? Ever hear of a runaway prop on a full scale airplane? This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.  I just consulted with a friend of mine on a B-17 he built, that uses two engines, and for static display, he installs two more props on the outboard nacelles. They are removed for flying because of the drag, and there can even be a heck of a harmonic vibration from the spinning props that can cause problems. This is typically what is done with multi engine planes to simplify the construction and operation of the model when you can't for some reason use a full compliment of engines. One purpose of picking a multi-engine model for a subject to model is the extra points awarded in scoring, but I do believe you have to demonstrate that all engines can and are running for flight points, and in the case of the B-36, and not knowing the exact rules, what bonus points would be awarded for only having two of the six engine operable. That is what I mean by saying "that actually works." And airplane, to me , is the sum of all of it's parts, and anything that goes into the air should be fulfilling a purpose and doing some work. Sure, you could do it, but there are far more reasons not to do do it than there are pluses for it.  Every once in a while, you have to land a model dead stick, and those spinning props where ever they are certainly do no help in a situation where you are running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time. You have to notice, if you read the available model publications that are currently available, and the older magazines, or go the the Nationals and other scale contests, that this is NOT a common practice, and probably for a lot more reasons than what I have included here. You mangaged to dig up one example, but I'll bet you will have a hard time finding another.
    GOD BLESS JIMMY STEWART!!!
    Dan McEntee   


fYI,, I judge scale,, so I know a little, not an expert but a little,,
in order to obtain any points on the flying score, all engines must remain flying for the flight, any engine not running does not obtain bonus points...

as to frewheeling props,, one of the first observations flying electric stunt with ONE electric motor,, when the motor quit, and the prop freewheeled, the airplane came DOWN to the ground,, NOW,, later experiments showed that using the braking action of the speed control to stop the prop allowed the airplane to glide normally to a landing..

to  operate a B-36 with two motors, and the other props spinning would require a substantial increas in the size and power of the two motors providing power to overcome the drag,, and in addition, any variation in friction on the freewheeling props would cause potential serious yaw issues,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Online John Rist

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Re: B-36
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2013, 10:32:30 PM »
Six churning and four burning.  The six churning would be easy with electric but how would you emulate the four burning?  I am thinking an electric heater and smoke oil.   :X  :##    Also she looks tail heave - balance would be a problem.
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: B-36
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 07:49:41 PM »
Well, if anyone has the guts to try it, a B-36 would be most welcome at our 7th Annual 1cc Multi-Engine Profile Scale contest here in Tucson, October 12-13, 2013.

email me for the rules:  vsc-guy at cox dot net.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Howard Olson

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Re: B-36
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 07:26:15 AM »
I have seen first hand C/L scale B-36 which is in the collection of the EAA in Oshkosh.  I don't know who owned it, but it had 6 McCoy .19s on it.  The model was hanging in a back room where they take in museum donations.  I'm sure if you called ahead they would let you take a look at it.  Would be a good trip for any scale guy anyway.

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: B-36
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 08:07:54 AM »
I have seen first hand C/L scale B-36 which is in the collection of the EAA in Oshkosh.  I don't know who owned it, but it had 6 McCoy .19s on it.  The model was hanging in a back room where they take in museum donations.  I'm sure if you called ahead they would let you take a look at it.  Would be a good trip for any scale guy anyway.

That is for sure, Howard. The museum and the EAA Airventure is where I have located no less than four of the subjects that I have built. They are a great source.

Jim Fruit

Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: B-36
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2013, 05:18:59 PM »
I found a vídeo of a B29 with two real engines and 2 fake...
It seems to fly pretty well...



Marcus
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Re: B-36
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2013, 08:06:35 PM »
Yes it does fly but it still ain't cool.  n1  I have seen many 4 engine U-Control bombers with 4 churning.  Sounds different, and looks different.

I LOVED IT  y1
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: B-36
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2013, 09:01:33 PM »

Charles,

Inquiring minds want to know what you are talking about.

KT



 Actually Keith, we don't.  :)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 10:16:43 PM by wwwarbird »
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: B-36
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2013, 09:09:53 PM »
 I stumbled across this a couple years ago in the lobby area at the Fairmont, MN airport, WAY COOL. y1

 It hangs on a wall directly above the entrance to the FBO.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline MarcusCordeiro

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Re: B-36
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2013, 06:20:18 AM »
Really WAY COOL!!!

Man, that's got to pull a little, ain't it?
I mean 15 pounds?? n~ 6 .20s?? n~ n~

And I hear some people say there's nothing in scale...

Thanks for the pics!

Marcus
Live to fly, fly to live
Aces High!

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Here comes Marcus, man..."


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