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Author Topic: Profile Scale  (Read 716 times)

Offline eric conley

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Profile Scale
« on: July 11, 2009, 09:31:45 AM »
     I've been wondering (for a long time) if there is a formula for building the wing of a Profile scale plane so that it turns out to have scale proportions with the fuselage. I know that when you build a scale plane with a full or built up body (not a profile plane) they turn out to look quite good and are right on the overall scale of the plane you have coppied.
     My question is when you build a profile scale plane do you take the top view of the plane and build the wing to scale and then instead of the fuselage being full do you just build it in profile (one inch wide). I have built several planes (profiles) that I wanted to look very close to scale and have been disappointed with the results because the wing seemed to turn out looking long and spindly. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have decreased the span of the wing.
     Lets say I am building a Profile F4F and the fuselage is 4'' wide at the point where the wing goes through the fuselage. Now if I'm building a profile do I reduce the wing span by 3'' and if so where do I remove the 3'', at the fuselage or out at the wing tip or somewhere else? Does the same treatment go for the horizontal stab and elevator? I hope I've made this clear enough. Thanks, Eric

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 11:03:04 AM »
You have a good question there and the answer is you need to compromise something when you road kill the body.

I like to build the plan form exactly as the 3-view shows with the LE & TE of wing and tail plane extended to where they meet in the middle.  Thus, the wingspan and tail span are correct.

The wing area that was trapped inside that body is liberated.  In virtually all cases, the model can use all the wing area it can legally get.

A bigger problem is the landing gear of a prototype that had a "wishbone" type of gear mounted in the fuselage.   It ends up being too "narrow-track" for it's own good.
Paul Smith

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 06:34:51 PM »
The full span wing and stab as Paul mentioned seems to be the standard practice.

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 08:59:42 PM »
I have submitted a rules change proposal to answer this recurring question.

See Rules Change Proposal CLS 11-9.

Clancy
Clancy Arnold
Indianapolis, IN   AMA 12560 LM-S
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Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 02:54:41 PM »
I have received two emails from Clark Macomber on this subject so I am bumping it up for all scale fliers to again read it and COMMENT.

I will let Clark present his ideas and they are good ideas to be considered.

The actual rules change proposal Clark has a problem with is CLS-11-9.

Clancy
Clancy Arnold
Indianapolis, IN   AMA 12560 LM-S
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Offline clark macomber

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 02:24:31 PM »
It seems to me that this proposal, which makes mandatory Paul Smith's approach to profile wing problems, has not been completely thought through.  If you accept that a scale model, even a profile model, should aim to recreate the "feel" of the prototype then a rule like this would damn many prototypes to be either unusable for a profile model or doomed to ridiculous distortions.

A few examples:  The Spitfire or Thunderbolt wing would lose its elegance with a constant-chord addition which would look worse and worse as the scale grew larger.  On a Hurricane or Avenger the straightish center section would assume a wholly different relationship to the strongly-tapered outer wing.  A Stuka or Corsair would be a complete disaster with the inner gull section forced into either a grossly different dihedral angle or an attach-point way higher on the fuselage.

This proposal is just way too rigid.  If, as the proposal states (and it's a good point), that some guidance for the judging considerations and a contestant's design decisions should be in the rules, how about: 

"Profile scale judging recognizes that severely narrowing the fuselage will affect the wing in some way.  Scoring will be based on the modeler's success in retaining the character or "feel" of the plan view of the prototype. To accomplish this the modeler may choose to shorten or lengthen the wing in whole or in parts and/or unnoticeably (generally 5% or less) increase or decrease the scale of the wing in relation to the fuselage.  Since the models are not measured changes in scale span size are not important, but overall appearance is."

Guys, it's "artistic" decision, but we make lots of those with every model.  Color shades, paint gloss and adding or omitting details are similar. Lets just state the goal and leave it to the modeler.

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Profile Scale
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 01:29:06 PM »
Clark
I think you miss interpreted Paul's statement.

"I like to build the plan form exactly as the 3-view shows with the LE & TE of wing and tail plane extended to where they meet in the middle."

I think Paul meant If the wing is tapered then the leading and trailing edges would remain tapered at the same angle.  This would only cause a slight enlarging of the actual wing root cord.  Since the P-47 and Spitfire have elliptical wings then the center would end up being extended in a straight line since the wing at the root is in fact going perpendicular to the CL of the body all ready.  

The problem area that I agree needs some adjustment is when the prototype has a bent wing, Gull or Inverted Gull wing.  The F4-U is a good example of an inverted gull wing and any extending of the wing while maintaining the correct dihedral angle would cause the wing to enter the "Body" in the wrong place on the body.   I know not how to fix this problem so if you have a "Fix" please submit it now as a Rules Change Proposal or later as a Cross Proposal if my original proposal is passed on the first ballot.

The only thing I can suggest is that you extend the lines of the wing to the CL of the body and have the wing touch the body at the pint they project on the profile body at the "Profile surface of the model" you have complied with Paul's original statement. 

Clancy
Clancy Arnold
Indianapolis, IN   AMA 12560 LM-S
U/Tronics Control
U/Control with electronics added.


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