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Author Topic: Profile scale or Fun Scale  (Read 578 times)

Offline Shorts,David

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Profile scale or Fun Scale
« on: April 23, 2025, 02:29:48 PM »
Hi all,

I'm thinking of entering my new profile stunt plane in scale at NW regionals with a receiver added of course. I just read the AMA publication for CL scale.

I'm not sure if a couple things.
1. My plane is not very scale. It's a trike gear but rather than the mains extending from the wing, they extend from the fuselage. It's profile. The wing is close, but not exact in shape, etc.  markings are very close but I can't find the exact aircraft to match my squadron number etc.
Would I be better of in fun scale rather than profile scale?

2. The rule book just says 9.9 flight maybe/scale operations not in 9.6, 9.7, 9.8. 
Are there some other good maneuvers people do? I was thinking of an immelmann and ending the maneuver in the inverted at 45 degrees. Then just ease down in the inverted to call my inverted flight maneuver. Thoughts?

Thanks
David

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2025, 07:06:33 AM »
I have entered BOTH events.  Fun scale gives 10 static points.  Profile scale gives 100 static points.
Judges are very generous in both events.  So you will need very close to FULL points to have any chance of winning.
Based on your description, you will take a much bigger beating in Profile, so enter Fun.

It also depends on how good your plane flys.  In Fun, the winner get very close to the full 100 points. 

One approach is to keep your powder dry and enter the event with less competition. Sometimes guys gravitate to Fun and leave Profile uncontested.

Sadly, guys enter RTF foam scale toys in Fun and get the full 10 static points.  Their scaleness is PERFECT.  The toy makers have rendered an exact scale toy with perfect documentation, so the toy scores 10 with no effort by the contestant.  This is one reason I steer clear of Fun with the models I have designed and built myself.  I get maybe 7.5 or 8 points on the plane I built, but this is death compared to the automatic 10's given to store bought toys.

In any case, enter and fly something for the contest experience.
Paul Smith

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2025, 07:16:08 AM »
As far as inverted and high flight go, the procedure is the first get your plane in position, then call "NOW".

For high flight, call "high flight", then climb to 45 degrees any way you want, then call "NOW" while facing the jury.  After three laps call "DONE".  They only judge between NOW and DONE.  The same deal for inverted.

For you six options you can use the usual:  high flight, loop, inverted, overshoot, touch,  go, taxi lap, and throttle operation.  That's eight stunts.  You pick the six you like.
Paul Smith

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2025, 02:31:44 PM »
David - since you mentioned that your model is "not very scale", I would suggest entering in Fun Scale.  Static documentation is easy - just four pages max.

For flight options, you need just six.  Note that when deciding on your flight options, the rules state "All will be judged and scored in relation to their scale-like flying or operation qualities."  Just because your model can perform a loop and fly inverted, you need to mimic what the actual airplane could perform.  Many pilots use touch & go since it counts as two options for a total of 20 points.  Whatever you choose, I suggest reading the possible "Errors" listed in the rules for each option - they are very helpful in understanding what not to do.

PM me if you have questions.

Pete

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2025, 08:20:42 PM »
You can put together a set of maneuvers from the scale rulebook that you can fly with a flapless, no-stunt model -- like a profile Ercoupe, for instance.  It's almost like the rulebook writers wanted you to do well with a Piper Cub or an SE-5, without having to horse the thing upside down.

You have three required maneuvers and six optional.  Touch & go counts as two maneuvers.  Here's the list of maneuvers that I flew last year at the Northwest Regionals to win in Profile.  Notice that I practiced my maneuvers, and that got me a high score.  Get your throttle working perfectly, go practice making your airplane fly realistically, and come fly.

  • Takeoff (mandatory)
  • 10 Laps (mandatory)
  • High Flight (optional)
  • Taxi (optional)
  • Low approach / missed approach (optional)
  • Lazy 8 (optional -- not a stunt Lazy 8 -- you never go upside down or higher than 45 degrees)
  • Touch and go (optional counts as two maneuvers)
  • Landing (mandatory -- people get freaked if the airplane never comes to ground)
  • Realism in flight (not one maneuver)

I got a lot of kudos for how my Ercoupe handled.  Especially embarrassing were the comments after the incredibly bouncy landings in my second flight (I bailed out of the landing three times) -- apparently this is just more Realism in Flight, if the person watching has ever landed their full-size Ercoupe with too high a sink rate.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2025, 09:22:12 AM »
Thanks for the feedback. I hope to start practicing next week.
If I understand correctly, the taxi maneuver is always after landing as to before takeoff.

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2025, 09:54:14 AM »
Thanks for the feedback. I hope to start practicing next week.
If I understand correctly, the taxi maneuver is always after landing as to before takeoff.
Correct - taxi maneuver after landing.  From the rulebook "9.7.3. Taxi (Option). The taxi demonstration shall be executed only after the mandatory Landing is complete."

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2025, 10:37:45 AM »
I find it amusing that some contestants complain about others using Inverted Flight on the basis that it's unrealistic for the type of aircraft.  But in reality many planes that were not "certified inverted" were illegally flown upside down.

At the same time I have never seen the the taxi lap challenged for WWI biplanes that had no throttles, but simply killed the engine and let the plane roll to a stop.  Likewise, the use of "throttle control" as a option of a plane that had no throttle. 

On the same note, you need to dead-stop the model with the engine running before takeoff to get full points.  But WWI movies show that these planes had no wheel brakes and they were held back by crewmen (like CL stunter) and released headed into the wind.

I were judging flight points (which is unlikely) I would give full credit for anything the pilot & model can achieve and not quibble about if the real plane did it or not.  In a fading event we don't need to roadblock the few who still participate.
Paul Smith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2025, 02:15:21 PM »
I find it amusing that some contestants complain about others using Inverted Flight on the basis that it's unrealistic for the type of aircraft.  But in reality many planes that were not "certified inverted" were illegally flown upside down.

Were I judging or ED-ing a scale event I'd allow a "not certified" to fly inverted to do negative-g maneuvers if the contestant were modeling a plane that had specifically been modified for such, or if the contestant were willing to do the trick where you go inverted until the engine cuts out for lack of fuel, then do a half-loop to level flight.

I wasn't suggesting avoiding inverted flight because it's unrealistic -- rather, I was suggesting avoiding it because I'll be at that contest and it's sad to see smashed-up scale planes that someone tried to stunt.

If you are going to stunt at a scale event you should build a plane specifically for that purpose, making sure to make the plane light enough to do the job, and making sure that you're a good enough pilot.  Then build another one to be sure you can fly, before you risk the nice one.

At the same time I have never seen the the taxi lap challenged for WWI biplanes that had no throttles, but simply killed the engine and let the plane roll to a stop.  Likewise, the use of "throttle control" as a option of a plane that had no throttle. 

On the same note, you need to dead-stop the model with the engine running before takeoff to get full points.  But WWI movies show that these planes had no wheel brakes and they were held back by crewmen (like CL stunter) and released headed into the wind.

I were judging flight points (which is unlikely) I would give full credit for anything the pilot & model can achieve and not quibble about if the real plane did it or not.  In a fading event we don't need to roadblock the few who still participate.

Yes, I'm nit-picking.  Feel free to ignore this.

Not all WWI planes lacked throttles -- it was just the ones with rotary engines that fed rich fuel-air through the crankcase, and pulled inlet air backwards through the exhaust stack that couldn't throttle well.  Even those had buttons on stick that you could use to cut out the ignition system; so you at least had crappy speed control on the engine.

I've seen videos of that style of plane being taxied (in a modern context, by Kermit Weeks) by (a) flying on grass where the tail skid acts like a brake, and (b) careful engine speed control by using the ignition cutout just enough to slow down, without stalling the engine.

So taxiing even a Camel or similar isn't totally unrealistic -- and taxiing a Spad with a Hispano or an Albatross with a Mercedes would have been as easy as using the perfectly ordinary throttle.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2025, 05:24:32 PM »
Good advise. I built my plane for stunt with a side order of scale. I've watched the full scale version do some inverted flight.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Profile scale or Fun Scale
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2025, 10:01:10 PM »
  Check out this thread with a few pics of my profile stunt/scale Airtractor Dusty Crophopper.
 
     https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/trimming-session-at-buder/msg410378/#msg410378

    There might be better pics on the forum somewhere. I had just seen the real full scale , rebuilt AirTractor crop duster that was painted like Dusty at Oshkosh in 2013, I think it was and took some photos. later on I ran across a set of plans for a Cessna Agwagon crop duster by Larry Kruse that was based on a Twister wing. It was intended as a stunt model and I just reworked it to resemble the "real" Dusty, and along the ay figured out how to make an add on and removable throttle pack for flying throttle control for scale competition. I massaged the dimesons and shapes to make the airplane a sort of illusion of details to get the best static score. I'm really still not finished with surface details, but have done pretty well with it in the few scale contests I have flown it in. I usually include a loop and a wingover as flight options because the airplane should be certified for those kind of stresses as a working crop duster. I never needed to do any other stunt tricks to fill out the 6 required after doing  take off, touch and go, the two aerobatic maneuvers, landing and taxi makes for 6.. As a stunt model, it's pretty capable and has been good for some 500 plus point scores. The real airplane I'm sure has the proper fuel and oil systems in it to handle the G forces and such of a crop duster, but I just don't think that you would often see one flying inverted on purpose!!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)


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