Author Topic: Proctor Jenny (Read 15368 times)

david smith · « **Reply #100 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:23:43 PM »

Quote

then I plan on taking the plane upstairs to the living room and rolling back the carpet to use the floor as a surface plate to check the alignment.

I have used the living room many times for putting planes, motorcycles, and what ever other kinds of toys I have had together.

It looks absolutely beautiful!
Thanks for all of the pictures throughout the build. I have learned a whole lot from just looking at your pictures.

Thanks
David

john e. holliday · « **Reply #101 on:** March 03, 2010, 04:59:10 AM »

John, you have way more patience than I ever had. It's late now, but instead of crimping, did you think of swagging the ferrals.

David, did Mom really let you build in the living room? When you see her, tell her the Old DOC says hi.

John Witt · « **Reply #102 on:** March 04, 2010, 08:48:37 PM »

Big milestone this time. All of the rigging necessary to fly is finished. I still have to do a final alignment check and then safety wire all the turnbuckles and a dozen other small things, but it is really getting close to flight time. I'm starting to salivate like Pavlov's dog at the prospect. Here's a few shots from this evening (3/4/10).

John W

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #103 on:** March 04, 2010, 10:04:57 PM »

I cant tell you how much this rocks my boat.
really solid job, just be patient with the test flights man,,

John Rist · « **Reply #104 on:** March 05, 2010, 07:29:39 AM »

Really nice!

If all goes well will you bring it to the NATS? If so what class will it be in? Looking forward to seeing it first hand. Thanks for sharing it with us.

John Witt · « **Reply #105 on:** March 05, 2010, 09:37:01 PM »

Thank you all for the kind words. Don't know about the Nats. I'd like to go just to meet all the good folks and see all the wonderful airplanes. I am still working for a living so have to figure out if there will be enough available vacation time. I'm also the lead mechanical engineer on a project that may not allow me to be gone in that time frame. The last time I attended a Nats was at Willow Grove NAS in (I think) 1958. I guess it's time to do it again.

Mainly I just want to get through the Northwest Regionals in one piece.

The class for the Jenny is Sport Scale, since it is a kit airplane and is from the Ralph Beck plans. Doc, I borrowed a friend's Nicopress swaging tools, but it didn't go small enough for the ferrules on the rigging. I was able to use it to do the leadout wires. I used an old dull pair of side cutters to put two transverse crimps in the ferrules which holds the .015 rigging cable to the breaking point. In addition the crimps work better than just mashing the ferrules flat because crimping avoids a sharp stress raiser at the end of the ferrule which could cause the cables to break.

Regards to all,

John W

john e. holliday · « **Reply #106 on:** March 06, 2010, 10:47:45 AM »

If not for the backgound clutter, I would have sworn that was the real plane, picture taken froma balcony. That is one project you can be pround of and to do it in such a short period of time. Hope it flies as well as it looks.

John Witt · « **Reply #107 on:** March 06, 2010, 12:08:29 PM »

Clutter! Doc, That's all good stuff. A clean shop is sign of a sick mind...

John W

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #108 on:** March 07, 2010, 06:31:43 PM »

John
You can enter it in FAI F4B this year at the NATS. The only event it would not qualify for is Designer Scale and Profile unless you accidentally drive over it. LOL

Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #109 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:19:16 AM »

Quote from: John Witt on March 06, 2010, 12:08:29 PM

Clutter! Doc, That's all good stuff. A clean shop is sign of a sick mind...

John W

You mean I may be sane after all?

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #110 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:48:09 AM »

John,
Make sure you test fly it before you bring it to the regionals ok?

John Witt · « **Reply #111 on:** March 09, 2010, 11:14:02 AM »

Oh yeah, for sure.

My plan is to be airworthy by the end of March. It is almost ready now, just down to the control system, handle and final checks. Due to other commitments, I can't fly on 20-21st, this coming weekend has bad weather forcast, so maybe on the 27th.

I'd like to have enough flights in April to get it trimmed and practice the maneuver schedule. We'll see, the weather is being kind of fickle right now.

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #112 on:** March 09, 2010, 05:34:19 PM »

John
Be sure to have someone taking lots of pictures before, during and after the test flights.
Clancy

John Witt · « **Reply #113 on:** March 12, 2010, 07:44:36 AM »

The forecast shows a weather window opening this coming Sunday. I finished terminating the lines and checking out the controls last night. Probably will get to Arlington Airport around 10AM. First flight around 11AM. If not this weekend, the next opportunity is two weeks away.

If anyone's in the neighborhood, come on by. Should be interesting, one way or the other.

John W

John Witt · « **Reply #114 on:** March 14, 2010, 03:37:39 PM »

The Jenny flies. Made a couple of 6 minute flights, with touch and go landing, high flight and missed approaches. The power level is just about right, with 10 second laps at roughly half throttle. Clancy's throttle control works great. Conditions were overcast, calm to light winds and about 50 deg F. All the electrics stayed nice and cool.

Pictures shortly, and maybe a video if I can figure out how to post it.

Now on to some more detail work.

John W

Pictures added -- photos by Brian Taylor, who is building an R/C Proctor Jenny

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #115 on:** March 14, 2010, 04:26:44 PM »

Congratulations John!!!

Now you just need some more practice time.

The Regionals would be good practice time working under actual competition conditions.

Remember High flight scores zero below 30 degrees, some points between 30 and 45 degrees, maximum points above 45 degrees and zero if you crash because of flying too high (above 60 degrees)!!! Ask Steve Couch!

Will be watching for you at the NATS.

Clancy

chuck snyder · « **Reply #116 on:** March 15, 2010, 05:01:58 AM »

Way to go John

Chuck

Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach · « **Reply #117 on:** March 15, 2010, 12:12:02 PM »

Atta boy! Looks very real in the air......so real it looks odd without the pilot in there flying it!

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #118 on:** March 15, 2010, 12:16:02 PM »

Glen

The pilot was there, but he bent down to get his cigar that he dropped just as the picture was being taken. LOL

It is a great looking model.

Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #119 on:** March 15, 2010, 08:37:40 PM »

You can be very proud of yourself to tackle such a project and finish it in such short time. Of course I have heard that scale models are never finished by a couple of gents that used to fly scale out in western Kansas. Just don't bruise the grass with it. By the way the in flight shots are great.

John Witt · « **Reply #120 on:** March 15, 2010, 09:11:11 PM »

That's exactly right, John, it's not finished. I have a full page list of stuff to be done before the contest in May, not the least of which is to get Capt'n Eddie aboard. Even with all that, the cockpit details are not likely to be in there. Maybe by fall. I've got to get in some stunt practice too.

The Jenny is a great flyer, I can't wait to get it airborne again. One of the two Turnigy batteries I bought has a bad cell and won't charge, so I've got to get another battery. I guess that's why they're cheap!!!

John W

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #121 on:** March 16, 2010, 01:48:28 AM »

Well done John,,
LOve the finished,, well how about love the "at this stage of completion" model,
always loved the old bird, you did her proud.
looking forward to seeing it at the regionals....

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #122 on:** March 16, 2010, 02:06:42 PM »

Hi John,
Very well done! Glad to see it airborne, it looks good out on the end of the lines in those pics. Good luck with it, hope to see you at the nats.
Chris...

John Witt · « **Reply #123 on:** March 25, 2010, 07:51:15 PM »

Thank you all. I hope to get some more flying in soon, maybe Saturday if the weather is as forecast. I was gone over the last weekend, so nothing happened, but in the last couple of evenings a few things were accomplished.

The numbers are now painted on both sides of the fuselage and the hinges and fairing strips are in place on the turtledeck. The real Jenny's turtledeck is held on with 8 brass cabinet hinges with cotterpins inserted where the hinge pins go. It's possible to easily remove the turtledeck for maintenance.

The hinges are made of .020 styrene, with a small strip of styrene half-round glued in the middle. These were painted brass and glued on with CA. The fairing strips are likewise Evergreen .010 x .188 wide strips, painted Olive Drab to match the cowlings and glued in place. Here's a picture of the results. Should look OK from 15 feet away.

Regards to all and thanks for the encouragement

John W

Howard Rush · « **Reply #124 on:** March 26, 2010, 01:51:17 AM »

Very cool. I hope to see it Saturday.

Will Hinton · « **Reply #125 on:** March 26, 2010, 06:39:23 AM »

Wow, John, what a masterpiece!! I'm so glad to learn that it flies great - and I sure hope you are able to attend the nats with it. Your time frame for the build challenges me, big time!!

Blessings,
Will

Allen Goff · « **Reply #126 on:** March 26, 2010, 08:12:25 AM »

Great job John, looks good on the ground and in the air. Hope to see you at the "Nats" and the FCM the last of Aug.

Blessings
Allen

Dick Byron · « **Reply #127 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:29:01 AM »

Very well done.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #128 on:** March 26, 2010, 05:47:14 PM »

I bet it looks good from lots closer than 15 feet!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #129 on:** March 26, 2010, 08:59:00 PM »

How far away is the real plane you are replicating? That is still awesome.

John Witt · « **Reply #130 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:59:04 PM »

John,

The plane being modeled is a generic JN4-D2, production model, based on the Joe Nieto drawings that appeared in Model Airplane News.
S/N 2508, the plane which is depicted in Nieto's drawings is now in the Air Force museum at Wright-Patterson AFB. 2508 has been repainted by someone, somewhere along the line in solid olive drab, so no longer has the Air Service Mechanic's School markings as shown in the drawings. Incidentally, I clipped those drawings from MAN when I was a kid and have been carrying them around, along with many others, for a long time.

I haven't been able to find much evidence that most JN4-D2s were painted anything except clear dope and varnish, except for the Navy versions which were apparently grey or silver and yellow. Since color film wasn't available, descriptions have to do as far as colors go. Also the film used in those days did not render colors in a consistent grey scale, so estimates from B/W photos are often erroneous. Some late production Jennies were reportedly painted solid OD or Yellow, there were other variations as well. There is also some confusion about color since the varnish used would turn yellow/brown pretty rapidly.

My model carries serial number 2722 which was very close to the 2508, so I'm making the somewhat cavalier assumption it would have been at Kelly Field at about the same time. I found a list of all the early Army Air Corps serial numbers on line. I didn't want to use 2508 because it has been done many times. My model combines details from research, the Nieto drawings, archival Jenny photos and many photos of the Daughtry Jenny at Golden Age museum, the Jenny at Flying Heritage museum and the Jenny at the Hood River Oregon museum, as well as some photos of Jennies under construction in the Curtiss factory. Also had some correspondence and phone conversations with the Flying Heritage curator, and the gentleman that did the actual restoration work on that airplane, and not least, Brian Karli's website showing his construction of a full scale Jenny from Curtiss blueprints.

Hope this sort of answers your question.

John W

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #131 on:** March 26, 2010, 11:08:56 PM »

John,
hope your scale documentation package supports the serial number you used. Might make a difference come judging time.

John Witt · « **Reply #132 on:** March 27, 2010, 06:33:10 PM »

Got in three flights today totaling about 30 minutes. It is a lot of fun to fly, especially touch and gos.

Here is a link to Brian Taylor's pictures of the first flight:

http://cid-15550321b698223e.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/John%5E4s%20Jenny

And a picture from today.

Got to get to work on the documentation package, plus some more details. I think I have the S/N covered.

John W

david smith · « **Reply #133 on:** March 27, 2010, 08:11:07 PM »

If I didnt know better I would swear that is real!

Great job!

David

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #134 on:** March 27, 2010, 08:14:09 PM »

John
Look great and I really like the shot with the two pine trees in the background. It looks like he just buzzed his girlfriends house and just missed the trees.
Clancy

John Witt · « **Reply #135 on:** March 31, 2010, 10:22:12 AM »

Control lines -- well, it looks as though I read the wrong column in the AMA line size table and the Jenny will require .021 diameter wires. The wires I've been flying with are .018. Brodak doesn't carry anything bigger than .018 in insulated wires, so I went internet shopping and found nylon coated fishing leader cable that will work. Jenny came out a bit over 10lbs weight, so requires .021 wire. That means a 50 lb pull test.

A local tackle shop had the right wire in stock, and sold me 150 feet for $14. It also turned out that they carry crimp ferrules (sleeves) like the ones Proctor includes for making up the wing rigging. I have replaced several of the wires on the Jenny as the rigging settles into its permanent configuration and was running low on the sleeves. The tackle sleeves are annealed brass, black oxide finish, so look just right. They are $1.69 for 36 sleeves -- what a deal!

Incidentally, it required a bit of legwork to figure out which wire to buy. The fishing folks go by the OD of the wire, which includes the nylon coating. What you do is go by the test strength, so .021 bare wire is 60# test, and the nylon coated .021, also 60# test, is actually .032 in diameter.

John W

Howard Rush · « **Reply #136 on:** March 31, 2010, 01:02:55 PM »

.032 will be a heap of drag. Maintaining control in the wind could be sporty. Also, nylon coating tends to snag on leadout guides. Want to try painting some plain .021s?

John Witt · « **Reply #137 on:** March 31, 2010, 02:05:31 PM »

Might be worth a try. Maintaining control in wind is going to be sporty anyway. I initially started with about 1/4 inch of rudder offset and a very small amount of up aileron in the OB wing. Jenny ailerons are LARGE. After the second flight I took out all of the rudder offset, because of lots of yaw, without making a lot of difference in the line tension. So far there isn't any noticeable friction in the controls, unless the nylon is wet and then there is a great deal of friction, too much to fly with.

I have about 2 oz of tip weight in the lower wingtip and with that it flies pretty level, with the 70 ft .018 lines. I could also reduce the line length some as well. The .018 coated wire is .028 in diameter.

Another possibility is to go with one insulated line, though it has been suggested that this leads to an elevator trim offset from the differential drag. There is a large variation in pull between the upwind and downwind side of the circle even in the very light breezes so far. Flying faster fixes that, but looks less realistic.

I don't know how much insulation it takes to avoid interference in the control signal, probably not much, since I think it is just 5V. I also don't know what the consequences of a short are. Perhap Clancy could comment on that.

BTW, in calm conditions it will fly very slowly, about 20 mph.

John W

John Rist · « **Reply #138 on:** March 31, 2010, 02:12:18 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on March 31, 2010, 01:02:55 PM

.032 will be a heap of drag. Maintaining control in the wind could be sporty. Also, nylon coating tends to snag on leadout guides. Want to try painting some plain .021s?

I had thouhgt about trying to coat my own line to make insulated lines. However I changed my mind. The life of my aircraft depends on not getting any shorts in the lines. Where talking big airplanes that should handle the load. By the way my leadouts are not insulated. They can not touch so they don't need to be insulated. Just my $.02 thought on the matter.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #139 on:** March 31, 2010, 03:03:05 PM »

Good point. I was wondering what the loss-of-signal effects are on the Jenny. If they are benign, we could do something flaky like trying to coat the lines ourselves (I am sorta volunteering to conspire). You can't count on it being dry or calm in Eugene.

I, too, was hoping for a Clancy comment.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #140 on:** March 31, 2010, 05:24:27 PM »

I use a converted R/C system, but a short leads to total loss of control(well except for elevator). Been there, done that, wrecked my Hs-129 at the 2003 Team Trials, engines shut down and the gear and flaps stayed up. Took me a long time to find the short (intermittant of course). No telling what your throttle would do.

I have had better results adjusting line pull by moving the leadout guide.

Since drag varies with the square of the speed, it is not quite the problem with a slow scale model that it would be with a stunter or combat model. I fly my Val with .027 + coating because I had it; it flies good enough to place first in the only two contests it has entered.
Chuck

John Rist · « **Reply #141 on:** April 01, 2010, 08:38:32 AM »

I do not reccomend using one insulated line. You suggested that only one line needs to be insulated. I started out with only one line insulated and lost an aircraft because of this. What happnes is that when you go low throttle the line tension reduces. The larger insulated line has more drag and tends to pull the ship in this direction. I had the single insulated line on the up side of the controll. It was a windy day. I cut power and as the aircraft came into the wind the drag on the up line up line drove the airplane up and over the top - SPLAT! If you use only one insulated line on a two line system twisting the line some may help. I have not tried this but it may help. To be safe I would use two insulated lines to keep the line drag the same. Interesting enough the insulated lines that Brodak sell, both lines are insulated.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #142 on:** April 02, 2010, 07:07:22 PM »

Gentlemen
You do not need me to comment. John has the hard earned lesson about using only one insulated line. I have never flown with only one insulated line. I have painted a set of lines to try this summer but no comment until I get several flights in on them.

If you have the lines spaced you could fly with uninsulated lines if you are not doing aerobatics. The 5 volt maximum is correct on U/Tronics Control.

Twisting the lines using only one insulated sound good BUT enough twists to keep the lines together would make flying very hard to control due to the drag between the lines. Have someone hold the model with mixed lines and see how the elevator functions with several twists in the lines.

I ran the software "Line III" on the Ringmaster Trainer I built last year and when going from plain to insulated I had to move the line guide back 1/2 inch. The Ringmaster Trainer weighs 40 oz. You might want to try using Line III to see what the actual effect of line sizes will do on your scale models. I feel the proper line guide position places the wing in the air pointing straight at you. This is how the trainer flies with the line guide as per Line III. Most of my scale models fly that way.

I am hoping to meet many of you in person at this years NATS,
Clancy

John Witt · « **Reply #143 on:** April 02, 2010, 08:41:50 PM »

Thanks all,

John, I think you commented awhile back about not using one line, so I hadn't seriously considered doing that. Running Line III show a leadout position of .74 for the .028 line I've been flying with and a position of .82 for the .032 lines which I'll be using. I suspect that difference is lost in the noise for the Jenny. I don't intend to engage in risky flying with this model, it costs too much in money and time.

It currently flies around with little yaw in the location the guide has right now, with nearly zero rudder offset and no motor offset. Line III predicts 8-10 lbs of pull at 10.5 second laps (30 MPH), and I guess that's about what it has -- a substantial pull.

Interestingly, the Jenny will rock its wings as it passes through air turbulence, but that doesn't seem to affect the pull much. One does not want to get too slow on the upwind side of the circle however, which complicates trying to do a scale-like takeoff and climbout. The real Jenny has a miserable rate of climb, about 200 ft/min, so it should take a lap or two for the model to get to a six foot cruising altitude. One thing you would not want to do is lose power at the wrong time, the Jenny glides like a rock.

Painted lines would probably improve things, but frankly I don't intend to fly it in much wind. The Arlington, WA airport site I usually fly at has a lot of fairly calm weather, so I should be able to enjoy the Jenny a lot.

John W

John Rist · « **Reply #144 on:** April 02, 2010, 11:01:35 PM »

One more silly suggestion -- use 3 lines, two uninsulated ( use both for return ) and one very small insulated line. Probably would have the same drag as two insulated lines and would be more hassle than it's worth. Rember the engineering # one rule -- KISS - Keep It Simple Stup------

john e. holliday · « **Reply #145 on:** April 03, 2010, 11:10:23 AM »

Yes the Jenny does fly slow. Looks like you could walk faster. The only oe I seen in the air was back in 69 or 70 when on the way to a Wichita KS constest. It was coming in for a landing northbound over Kansas Turnpike. Looked to be about 100 feet high and was barely moving. It is one graceful looking plane in the air. Just don't push yours that hard.

John Witt · « **Reply #146 on:** April 10, 2010, 10:38:07 PM »

Had a nice flying day today at the Arlington Airport. PW showed up to test his very impressive new airplane, and Rick Cochrane was there as well with his Impact.

Two of the local Proctor Jenny builders also showed up to see my control line version (they fly RC), Brian Taylor and Steve Kessinger. Steve, the madman, is building two of these at once. Very pleasant company and flying models on a beautiful day. It doesn't get much better.

And on that note, I am going to close out the saga of building the Proctor Jenny. There's not much left anyway but a few fiddly cockpit details. It's been fun writing about it and the many kind remarks and suggestions from you guys have been greatly appreciated. You're all the greatest.

Best regards,

John W

Neville Legg · « **Reply #147 on:** April 11, 2010, 12:56:28 AM »

How did you get your pilot to grin like that?

Superb model and photos by the way!

Cheers Neville

john e. holliday · « **Reply #148 on:** April 11, 2010, 07:32:11 AM »

Thank you for all the pictures and comments during construction. I would say that would be as hard as building such a beautiful airplane.

I noticed the pilot has no helmet as I can see, so how does he keep his hair combed.

LL~That is one beautiful in flight shot. That looks so real.

John Witt · « **Reply #149 on:** June 01, 2010, 10:58:38 AM »

The Jenny was awarded first in Sport Scale at the NW Regionals. I was lucky to have perfect weather and was even able to get in high flight. The maneuver sequence was engine start, takeoff, 10 laps level, high flight, touch and go, landing and engine shut down.

With little to no wind, I could fly it slow enough to get a very realistic flight: almost a full lap of takeoff roll and a very gentle climbout, with no worries about a nice slow approach to touch and go and landing. Great fun!

Pat Johnston and Mark Scarbourough were the judges. They worked very hard in the static judging to go over the 5 scale entries in about 3 hours.

Clancy's throttle system worked very well.

John W

Author Topic: Proctor Jenny (Read 15368 times)

david smith

david smith