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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Scale Models => Topic started by: Fred Cronenwett on February 03, 2014, 03:51:42 PM
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Go to this site and look thru the revised rules for CL scale, this is a sweeping change that affects all CL scale events
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/ruleproposals/clscale.aspx
Read thru them and send your comments to the contest board members on what you like and don't like
Fred Cronenwett
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The proposed new Control Line Scale rules are now available for review on the AMA web site.
They are divided into 8 proposals, that combined, would make up the complete new Control Line Scale rules. If approved they would take affect on January 1, 2015.
The size of each section:
CLSC 15-1 8 pages
CLSC 15-2 3 pages
CLSC 15-3 9 pages
CLSC 15-4 7 pages
CLSC 15-5 11 pages
CLSC 15-6 11 pages
CLSC 15-7 5 pages
CLSC 15-8 31 pages
Clancy
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I browsed through this huge package. It would take a long time to comprehend the whole thing, but this is what I see.
1. A attempt to liberate CL Scale from the RC-dominated Scale Category. This is a good thing. Incidentally, FF saw the problem decades ago and never accepted domination under RC. I support this and hope it passes.
2-8 are ideas, for "improving" CL Scale in the assumption of gaining freedom from RC. I think this is both presumptuous and overambitious.
We need to gain our freedom, elect a true CL Scale Contest Board, and then proceed to clean up the rules. If the secession from RC fails all the minor details are wasted.
One obvious defect is the assumption the 4-stroke engines have only half the power of a two-stoke. At one time there was a 60% rule. Stunt now accepts 4-strokes as equal. Meanwhile, electric power systems have no limitation whatsoever. If we are to continue allowing unlimited electrics the fair solution is to remove ALL engine/motor size limits and subject the entire model to a weight limit. For openers: 1/2A - 12 ounces. Profile and Fun - 12 pounds. All other events - 16 pounds.
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One obvious defect is the assumption the 4-stroke engines have only half the power of a two-stoke. At one time there was a 60% rule. Stunt now accepts 4-strokes as equal. Meanwhile, electric power systems have no limitation whatsoever. If we are to continue allowing unlimited electrics the fair solution is to remove ALL engine/motor size limits and subject the entire model to a weight limit. For openers: 1/2A - 12 ounces. Profile and Fun - 12 pounds. All other events - 16 pounds.
I have often wondered why there is no limit on electric power. Weight limits are OK but care must be taken not to get them too low. A multi-engine 1/2A can go way over 12 ounces in a heart beat. Just remember every time we change the rules you render a crop of airplanes illegal. I already have one airplane that is questionable due to a rule change. Kill another one and I will give up scale. It's no fun spending years getting a ship competitive and have it rendered useless.
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Weight limits are OK but care must be taken not to get them too low. A multi-engine 1/2A can go way over 12 ounces in a heart beat.
Here is a multi-engine 1/2A flown several times at the contests here in Tucson. Four Norvel .061's. Total weight is about 62 oz. ready to fly.
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Also 1/2a scale requires that pilots fly twice, the total score is the sum of the static and two (2) flights, currently most rules state that the total score is the sum of the static and single best flight score. Not sure why they are requiring 1/2a to fly 2 times even for a one day local contest.
Another item I noted was that fun scale is only allowed one page for documentation, the 3-view counts as one page, so that leaves nothing for color and markings
Fred
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Four .061's equals .244 cubic inches of power, hardly a legitimate 1/2A. You must have written the rules yourself to get away with that.
A 1/2A is model with less than .050 cubic inches of ENGINE power. Using an .061 stretches the rule to the breaking point. Using an unlimited number of .061's totally demolishes the intent of the event. If you want a multi-engine 1/2A get some .020's or .010's.
When rules are stretched to include bigger and heavier models those built to proper limits are rendered noncompetitive. Mixing electric motors with 1/2A engines will be the death of the event.
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Four .061's equals .244 cubic inches of power, hardly a legitimate 1/2A. You must have written the rules yourself to get away with that.
A 1/2A is model with less than .050 cubic inches of ENGINE power. Using an .061 stretches the rule to the breaking point. Using an unlimited number of .061's totally demolishes the intent of the event. If you want a multi-engine 1/2A get some .020's or .010's.
When rules are stretched to include bigger and heavier models those built to proper limits are rendered noncompetitive. Mixing electric motors with 1/2A engines will be the death of the event.
Nice try Paul. I did not write the rules, but surprise surprise, there are unofficial events for this sort of thing. Unfortunately, you have not paid much attention to the 1/2A CL Multi-Engine Profile Scale events that have been held here in Tucson and other locations for the past several years. Mike Keville (the creator of VSC) generated the rules for this event here in Tucson seven years ago which limits each engine displacement to .061 cu. in. or 1cc, and no electrics. Extra points are awarded if more than two engines are used. There are some other rules specific to this event, entirely independent of the AMA scale rules with the exception of matters to do with safety, line sizes and pull tests. There are two categories for this contest. The Limited event has no in-flight options, the Unlimited event allows up to three in-flight options. The Phoenix club has a carrier/scale contest each Fall and they have several scale events, including the two events using the Tucson rules. The St Louis club has a good contest each year that features a multi engine 1/2A scale event where each engine displacement can be .061.
The Tupolev Tu-95 in the above photo was built specifically for this event as has most of the entries that have appeared over the years. Some of those entries are shown below.
Oh, by the way, there was an entry this past fall that did have two Cox TD .020's.
Keith
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Keith; I love your four engine Russia bomber. You have much more patience than I do when building a 1/2A scale ship. I would like to come out and fly with you guys sometime. I have enjoyed the VSC in the past and thinking your 1/2A contest might be a hoot. Correct me if I have the wrong information on this, can I send my 1/2A out to you guys and have a proxy pilot to fly it for me in your contest? That would be cool.
Paul; "You must have written the rules yourself to get away with that." You are totally out of line here, not a great way to make friends in the scale community. For everyone's information I am the author of the 1/2A scale rules. Many people (eight) had impute as the rules were taking shape over the two years invested and the main objective was to keep it simple.
Fred; You and any other C D has the option to fly your contest as you see fit. Why should 1/2A be any different than the other scale classes. If time does not permit two flights, don't require two flights. This was to keep it uniform for the "Nats". I know that sharing the same flying area with other events (stunt) you only have so much time. Here is a suggestion for the coming years, if anyone want to host C/L scale than have it as a main draw and not a stepchild to other events. Space and time, what can we do?
As for the documentation issue. In my first Nats C/L scale competition years ago the two static judges called me to their table and questioned me as to why I had so much documentation, I replied I thought this was what I needed to have. They both replied " the more you have the more we can find wrong". Their advice was to present no more than is absolutely necessary. (good advise for any scale competitor) You can put 1 or 10 pictures per page and have enough for adequate documentation.
Back to my bat cave, still putting rivets on the 182. I'm up to 900 rivets. Hope to spray primer this Saturday, the temperature is predicted to be in the high 40's ( we have had 24 of the last 30 days below 0 temps).
Blessings
Allen
REMEMBER TO REGISTER FOR THE NATS EARLY, OUR AWARDS ARE BASED ON THE NUMBERS, THANKS.
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Keith; I love your four engine Russia bomber. You have much more patience than I do when building a 1/2A scale ship. I would like to come out and fly with you guys sometime. I have enjoyed the VSC in the past and thinking your 1/2A contest might be a hoot. Correct me if I have the wrong information on this, can I send my 1/2A out to you guys and have a proxy pilot to fly it for me in your contest? That would be cool.
Blessings
Allen
Allen,
I will answer here for Mike. Anyone can send a model to this Tucson contest to be proxy flown. There have been several models entered in the past that have placed being proxy flown, including Charlie Reeve's flying pancake, Bob Whitney's Pond Racer, and Allen Brickhous' Dornier Do 335. There have been several others proxy flown. There are several "capable" pilots in the area to perform this service.
I am trying to post more pictures.
Keith
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Thanks Keith. After I get the 182 in paint I'll get a twin 1/2A of some kind in the works.
I know you or Mike sent me your 1/2A rules sometime back but they are not around now, could you send them again?
Blessings
Allen
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Allen
if the 3-view counts as one page of the documentation then you have no pages left for the photos and color....
If the intent was to limit fun scale pilots to one page for color and photos that is fine but it needs to be clear that the 3-view is not part of the page count. Other sections in the proposed rules and current rules clearly say that the 3-view regardless of how many pages it has only counts as one page.
As for the number of flights for 1/2a all other events let the CD determine if they are flying one round or two rounds, then depending on how many rounds are being flown will determine if you use the single best flight or the average the two best flights. Sport and profile are set up this way so not sure why 1/2a is not set up the same way considering that a majority of the contests held around the country only fly one round. The NASA scale classic and the Nats are probably the only contests that fly two rounds. Maybe the other one that flies two rounds is at the Brodak contest.
Fred
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...I know you or Mike sent me your 1/2A rules sometime back but they are not around now, could you send them again?
Blessings
Allen
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Allen:
Shoot me an email: vsc-guy(at)cox(dot)net and I'll fix you up. Our rules are undergoing some minor 'tweaks' right now, although are basically the same as in previous years. The only 'open' item today is the October dates - possibly 11 & 12, but that's TBD.
Mike
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Allen,
I am trying to post more pictures.
Keith
Here is the Pond Racer by Bob Whitney. (Proxy flown.)
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--- and Allen Brickhaus' Dornier Do 335 --- (Proxy flown.)
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--- and another group shot ---
(The real groupies that follow these famous 1/2A scale contests are behind the camera.)