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Author Topic: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,  (Read 645 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« on: February 16, 2010, 09:24:55 PM »
There's a long list of Rules Change Proposals on the AMA site.  Several deal with attempts to further define "realism of flight" standards and ultimately reduce flight scores while leaving  Static Scoring alone. Thus if, approved, Profile Scale and Sport Scale will migrate from equally weighted Static and Flying to heavy on the Static.

It's already difficult enough to build a scale model and get it to fly without having the judge further downgrade the Flying score based on his personal opinion of what "realistic flight" is.  Did the judge actually SEE the prototype fly?  What about pre-1930 prototypes?  Did anybody at the contest ever see one fly?

All control line models inherently fly in an unrealistic way, unless the prototype was tethered to ground from the left wingtip.

Nobody can really define what "scale speed" is.  Is it defined by linear dimensions or area or maybe volume.  No matter how you define it, CL models can't come very close to it. 

Real airplanes tend to do loops with a diameter greater than 50-to-100 times the airplane's length.  But a model needs to do a loop less than 12 times it's length or less, or else it goes over center and looks like a bad wingover.  So ALL loops could and would be degraded for being too small.  A great "equalizer" for guys who can't do aloop at all.

The current rules define the tasks well enough.  Judging flights by how well the maneuvers are one vis a vis these rules is a pretty good system. 

The "realism of flight" proposals would effectively help POOR-FLYING models by creating a new way to degrade the Flight scores of all models and thereby moving the whole event toward the "musemum scale" scoring balance.

Paul Smith

Offline John Rist

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 07:56:53 AM »
Paul,

I am a bit confused as to what point you are trying to make.  I just read CLS 11-1 through CLS 11-17 (http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/ruleproposals/clscale.aspx) The only one I saw about realism in flight was CLS 11-16.  If i read it correctly it wants to add ADD Exact wording required.    Realism of outline in flight, are landing gear doors closing correctly, tail wheel retracted if prototype did in flight, are spinner or spinners present in flight.    So Please point me in the right direction to understand what you are commenting about.  I am fairly new to scale.  I currently have a CL Sport scale ship and I am building a Fun Scale ship.  It takes time and money to become proficient to a current set of rules therefore major rule changes scare me.

 HB~>  HB~>  ???  ???  ???
John Rist
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 08:23:53 AM »
I agree that rules changes that skew the scoring are unfair to existing models.

There are so many proposals, it takes some effort to connect the dots.  To me, there seems to be a pattern of downgrading things you can do with mechanical controls, and (if passed) making electronic controls mandatory to have a chance of winning.

One good example is the landing gear cycle thing.  It's hard enough to do retracts at all, but if you get killed for not duplicating the "open gear doors"-"retract gear"-"close gears doors" sequence, they've effectively said: 'ELECTRONIC CONTROLS REQUIRED", which is clearly the intent.

These things are in the hands of eleven appointed voters.  If they want tethered RC, that's what they will have.
Paul Smith

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 10:45:08 AM »
While I don't agree with all of Mr. Smith's logic, I do agree that the only opinions that matter are those of the Scale Contest Board members. I have written to them to present my thoughts and recommendations. Here is what I had to say about the "realism" proposals:

CLS 11-15 I recommend this proposal be REJECTED. The proposal would set a penalty for flying after removing a spinner that had been presented for static judging. In my opinion this situation is already covered by the paragraph cited. It states that only certain items can be replaced. My interpretation of the rule is that if an item is removed, or something else added, the flight should be disqualified. Further, if my interpretation is correct, passing the proposal and hence defining a penalty for removing a specific item sets up an internal conflict within the rules where one line says nothing can be removed, but another says it will cost you 10 points to remove the spinner.

CLS 11-16 I recommend this proposal be REJECTED. The outline of the model and lack of details is considered when assessing the static score. Reducing the flight realism score would be a double penalty for a less detailed model. The rule as currently written restricts the judging to the flight performance of the model but is open to score deductions for gear that don’t retract or doors that don’t close.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 11:07:15 AM »
I dont understand what the problem with judging gear sequences and proper shutting and fitment. We are trying to replicate a full size airplane in minature. having gear legs, and doors that retract like pattern ships is not scale and should not be given as many points as gear that sequences properly and at an appropriate speed. I doo not beleive that I have to have seen an Air Camper fly to understand how it should look while its flying. It is fairly obvious that an air camper will fly differntly than a P-51, which will fly different than a B-17.
Paul I agree to some extent with what John said, I dont get where your coming from, unless its your fear of electronics showing up perhaps? The mission statement is to present a scale model that replicates as closely as possible a full sized prototype. If you can devise a method to do that without electronics, more power to you, however, should the person who CAN use electronics be penalized because you dont want to understand them?
this is SCALE its about the mission statement for the class, not about technology
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
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Offline John Rist

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 01:45:58 PM »
I can and do use electronics. If fact I design my own.  It does make it easiery to add many features.  However it does add weight and can create relibility problems. So my question is --- If you are flying fun scale why would you pick a 4 engine bomber with retracts and working bomb bay doors?  Their are hundreds of fixed gear models that should fly well.  As a minimum the current rules do require a throttle to be compitive.  As with any competion, no matter what the rules some will be better at it than others.  And as always money will play a part.  Is this a reason to dumb down the competion so that any plane that flies should win.  Probbly not.  Competion is not for all but all who compete should read the rules so they don't get blind sided at a contest.  It is no fun for the judges to stop you from flying.

Having said all this my fun scale will be a converted RC ARF Extra 300S.  I looked at Tower Hobbies and picked out the a model that appeared to have posibilities.  I then searched the WEB for pictures of Extra 300S.  I found one that is very close in appearance to the stock ARF.  So with very little building tallent I should have a model that is capible of winning.  Of course to date I have managed to crash and burn every scale airplane I have flown. SO it is never easy.
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Dick Byron

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 05:06:57 PM »
Chuck,
       I need to clarify your point on 11-15. Do you say the current rule as written says if you remove the spinner and do not replace it with a flying spinner the flight will be disqualified? If so I agree and will remove the proposal. Thanks for your input. On 11-16 it will not be necessary to continue this one as the previous one will accomplish my point. It will be removed if you concur.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 07:52:57 AM by Dick Byron »

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 12:00:44 PM »
Dick, I can only speak for my interpretation of the rules. They really don't say what happens if you violate a "thou shalt not" statement. Take you out and shoot you? Probably not. Disqualify the flight? Yeah if I was the CD and somebody filed a protest. Work out some sort of "arrangement?" Happens all the time at local contests. Your results may vary!!
Chuck

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 12:56:56 PM »
Dick, Chuck
At my first NATS in 1983 I succeeded in thowing the props off of both engines of my P-38 trying to get the engines started.  I was told to leave the spinners off to save time but I put them back on to be able to use my electric starter.  I thought that must be covered in one of the rules as it sounded fair at the time.  Which one, I never found out.

Clancy
Clancy Arnold
Indianapolis, IN   AMA 12560 LM-S
U/Tronics Control
U/Control with electronics added.

Offline Dick Byron

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 02:10:33 PM »
Chuck,
        I called Mike Gretz this morning and he told me that the flight should be disqualified. I am going to remove both proposals and ask for an official interpretation in writing to Mike. This should not be a gray area, it needs specific interpretation so there are no misunderstandings in the future.
   I want to thank you for you input I value it greatly.

  Warmest Regards: 

   P.S. I have requested removal of my SC 11-15 AND 16 from consideration from Gregg Hahn.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 04:45:32 PM by Dick Byron »

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 05:20:04 PM »
Dick, thank you for your gracious response.
Chuck

Offline Dick Byron

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Re: New "realism of flight" rules proposals,,,
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 06:41:48 PM »
Chuck,
       I respect your opinion greatly. My desire is to improve scale and correct things for everyone to receive fair treatment. Nothing more nothing less.
   After an extensive conversation with Greg I found out a whole lot more about several conservations that were held between contestants, event directors and others concerned about all my complaints over the last 18 months. More to follow. The complaints were not with the NATS.  y1 y1 y1


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