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Author Topic: My C45J - Part 2  (Read 4039 times)

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2012, 02:38:54 PM »
Tim:

Thanks for the condolences. It is just a model however, no one was on board.

As far as my flight went, I just believe lack of flying experience overcame me. I knew that the plane had a tendency to hunt, which would tell me that it was still tail heavy. I did not want to add any more nose weight because it was a tail dragger and I was afraid of nose over. I was so rattled at the time of the first flight that I now remember that I had not even extended the flaps. This lack of lift probably also contributed to the plane not wanting to stay up at a slower speed. That is the end of that. Until I can get my flying abilities back, I am going much more simple (with more practice).

JHF


Hi Jim,
Sorry to see that you had a crash with the Twin Beech. I was rooting for you and love that model.

I agree with your assessment that a lot of flight time and recency of experience is a prerequisite for success in Scale.
Over the years experience has shown that cg is an absolute, nothing is worse than being out of balance regardless of total weight or landing gear configuration.
Experience in operating the Scale model entry itself is very important, most successful Scale models are flown extensively to trim them out and gain experience in operation.

I think these points are important no matter what the Scale subject and offer these points as the same I use for myself, as well as anyone else. I started flying R/C so that I could compete in Scale. I have been flying Pattern the last two years so as to have seen and flown the most different maneuvers and attitudes inflight as I can, before flying a more difficult to fly Scale model in competition.
Then, much like your thoughts on a new simpler ship, I've chosen a model that is a good flyer with simple operations. My choices are Scale aerobatic models, a fixed gear CAP 10 with flaps in "Fun Scale" and a Yak 18PM retractable tricycle-geared model with flaps for the tougher "Expert" event.
All this in hopes that I can be as successful as possible in the event, and enjoy flying the models.

I wish you the best with your next model, and hope you can get lots of flying time in this summer while enjoying it with your friends.

Chris...

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2012, 08:13:13 PM »
Chris:

Thanks for the kind words, I have always enjoyed your comments. I really like your choice of the YAK 18PM because of the tricycle retractable gear. That selection virtually eliminates the dreaded nose over and, of course, the retracts offer another flight option. Selection of the subject that naturally lends itself to the current scoring system is often difficult at best. In my opinion, I see the natural selection to be retracts, twin engines, flaps and tricycle gear. For this reason, my next subject was going to be a North American AJ-1 Savage. I had just about completed the plans for the AJ-1, but I am setting them aside for a while to do the simpler approach that I have previously mentioned. I need to get better at the second half of the hobby - flying. Thanks again.

JHF

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2012, 09:29:59 AM »
Hi Jim,
Your choice of an AJ for your ultimate Scaler is really cool.
I built a 45 inch Tigercat for Old Time Stunt and learned a lot of things I could share with you about making a Scale model light enough to fly well. Mine did not incorporate near enough of these to complete the Pattern but it did wingover and do consecutive loops safely, and I wish there had been time enough for me to incorporate all lightweight techniques before it's completion.

When you are entertaining the build, I'd be delighted to discuss weight savings and philosophy of the Scale model with you!

Chris...

Online chuck snyder

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2012, 12:01:35 PM »
I would like to offer some comments on the philosophy of selecting a subject for a scale model. First I believe that any model, simple or complex, can be competitive and building something that turns you on (provides the motivation for a complex project) is the top priority.

Beyond that I have some preferences. I don't like tricycle gear because of the potential to lose flight points on take off and landing. Many prototypes have a long nose gear (F7F, P-38, Ta-154). Built to scale length this can cause a model to "wheel barrow" on takeoff. In this situation the main gear lifts off before the nose wheel and the model runs along with only the nose wheel on the ground. Really bad deal on a full-size airplane and something I believe a flight judge ought to severly downgrade. Charlie Bauer's Ta-154 does this as did Lynn Greene's P-38 several years ago. On landing the long strut can also cause a problem with the angle of attack required to hold it off. Again full-size airplanes land main gear first. Most of the tricycle gear models I have watched will snap the nose gear to the pavement immediately after the mains touch rather than allowing the pilot to gradually and softly lower the nose wheel. Again I think a score downgrade would  be appropriate. The AJ-1, IIRC, does not sit with the exagerated angle of attack that the F7F and P-38 do, so maybe not an issue. A tail dragger provides the option of a two or three-point landing as fits the conditions. Many of the tricycle gear models I have seen just shorten the nose gear and ought to be downgraded in static.

Twins face an inherent weight penalty vs a single. I have built three for C/L competition, an XF-5-F and dH Hornet for profile and a Henschel 129 for FAI. The Skyrocket was somewhat successful, but mostly a learning experience as my first C/L scale model. Only real negative aspect was the thin scale airfoil. The others were reasonably successful. The Hornet was motivated by "love," the Henschel by practicality. Consider wing area vs total volume of fuselage and nacelles to try to keep the wing loading reasonable (1930's bombers good; post WWII cargo planes bad). The Henschel has simple geometry in the retracting gear. There is only one gear cover door and it does not sequence like the doors on a B-25. It has simple slotted flaps, one per wing. No complex fowler flaps. It carried bombs externally, no need for bomb bay doors.

In general I try to stay away from narrow landing gear--WWI or many bipes. They really tend to cause a C/L model to tip up on the left wing during ground handling maneuvers. That ought to cost flight points deduction.

I like my models big, big really does fly better. My better models are in the 700 to 800 square inch wing area range.

Chuck

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »
I was test flying a profile Brodak F8F bearcat for a friend in California and on the maiden flight we thought we had the CG just right but it needed to forward. I always take off very slowly, get the model to flying speed (tail up rolling on the mains) and slowly open the throttle and get the model about 3 feet off the ground and determine if the CG is correct. I normally shot for 25% of the average chord, that normally works out just fine. Then I start moving the CG aft if needed to get some faster response.

On the Beatcat test flight it was obvious that the CG was back too far and was too pitch senstive. I then froze my hand in the nuetral position and throttled back and landed with very minor damage. Since I was very close to the ground I was able to get the model back on the ground fast enough to minimize damage.

CG changes can make a huge difference in the model, also the leadout position will lower the line tension, especially on the larger models. On my 12 lb camera plane I can fly the model with one hand, but not at full speed. Adjust the CG first to get the pitch senstivity under control and then move the line guide to lower the line tension within reason.

Sad to hear the Twin Beech suffered a crash I was hoping to see the model at the FCM contest in Late Aug. I hope it can be rebuilt.

Fred Cronenwett
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2012, 03:59:23 PM »
Thanks guys for your comments, all interesting.

Chris: The AJ-1 holds a special interest for me. My parents bought me a Berkeley kit of one in the early 50's and it made a nice little scale model. I wanted to do a more legitimate rendition of the subject in their memory. I know what you mean about building light. Three years ago I built a Luscombe Phantom way too light (4 pounds on 660 square inches). In the first test flight, a slight Lake Michigan breeze vaulted the the model four feet into the air before I had any appreciable forward speed. It scared me so much that I set it back down immediately, causing landing gear damage. This one I will repair. I will have to cut back into the airplane to install a more substantial landing gear.

Chuck: I have seen what you are referring to in Charlie's Ta 154 and Lynn's P 38. Sometimes this can be helped by telescoping landing gear struts. It is interesting how you and I differ about tricycle gear as opposed to tail draggers. I believe that I have seen more nose overs with a tail dragger than I have seen issues with nose wheels. I believe that the best demonstration with either approach will because the pilot has practiced enough. This is where I have failed. I lost my flying buddy some time ago and it has been a good fifteen years since I have been able to get in any flying. Fortunately, electrics may change that.

Fred: I have already started with my design of my next,simpler model. It is going to be of the first rendition of the Rearwin Speedster with the Cirrus engine. All subsequent Speedsters used Menasco engines, so this subject will be very unique. The model will be totally adjustable (CG, leadout position and angle of attack), so I hope to get it to fly so that I am not afraid of it. It will be about 600 sq. in., and I am hoping for 5 to 6 pounds. I was planning to make it to FCM this year, but the Beech demise makes that impractical. The Beech could be repaired, but I hate fixing airplanes. Besides, after repairing it I still would have a less than ideal flying airplane. I would rather pursue a better flying model so that I can get some practice in. This is one of the reasons that I set the AJ-1 aside. On paper, it looked very similar to the Beech that did not succeed.

Jim Fruit

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012, 07:37:43 PM »
Now, don't forget the pictures. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2012, 11:21:27 PM »
Luscombe Phanton, Rearwin Speedster, man I'm lovin' that stuff.
Chris...

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: My C45J - Part 2
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2012, 11:06:30 AM »
Luscombe Phanton, Rearwin Speedster, man I'm lovin' that stuff.
Chris...

Chris:

Me too. I guess what I am doing is revealing my advanced age. No, what I am actually revealing is that I make an annual trip Oshkosh Wi. for the EAA convention to photograph proposed subjects. I am going up there next Monday for that reason. I usually am drawn to round engines, but I spotted the Rearwin Speedster there last year. Looks like a streamlined Piper Cub. I am hoping it makes a good one.

JHF


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