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Author Topic: Two Questions For The Experts  (Read 904 times)

Offline Dennis Saydak

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Two Questions For The Experts
« on: February 20, 2014, 05:22:54 PM »
1) How do you determine how much wing tip weight is required on a high wing scale model? The plan for my Mr. Mulligan doesn't show any tip weight. Do you weigh the lines and then add an extra % safety factor or what?

2) On high wing scale models there is often a line guide near the wing tip of the inboard wing. On my Mr. Mulligan prototype, the lead out wires  are relatively short coming out of the fuselage. That indicates to me that the actual control lines go through the line guide where they can easily be kinked or wear prematurely. Is this the normal way to hook up the control lines or what?
Just when you think you're getting ahead in the rat race.....you find the rats just get faster! MAAC 13120L

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 06:17:06 PM »
Dennis:

1. I can't say that I have seen any formula to follow for this purpose. I also can't say that a scale ship will require the fine tuning that the stunt ships do like a weight box. To somewhat compensate for the line weight and drag, I have always used about 2 ounces of tip weight. But then again, I fly somewhat heavy airplanes.

2. Yes, this is a very normal leadout arrangement. I have never experienced any kinking or excess wear where the lines go through a guide. If you are concerned, make the guide out of some material that will be less possible to affect the lines (plastic, phenolic, etc.). It would be best for the guide to be adjustable for optimum comfort in flying. The rules allow for the guide to be removable for static judging. So that ugly thing hanging from the bottom of your wing will not be considered in the judging.

Jim Fruit

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 06:22:13 PM »
1) How do you determine how much wing tip weight is required on a high wing scale model? The plan for my Mr. Mulligan doesn't show any tip weight. Do you weigh the lines and then add an extra % safety factor or what?

2) On high wing scale models there is often a line guide near the wing tip of the inboard wing. On my Mr. Mulligan prototype, the lead out wires  are relatively short coming out of the fuselage. That indicates to me that the actual control lines go through the line guide where they can easily be kinked or wear prematurely. Is this the normal way to hook up the control lines or what?


 I don't consider myself an "expert" Dennis, but I did figure some of this stuff out back when I built my PBY Catalina stunt model and it all works very well.

 1) I would incorporate a tip weight box so you can experiment during your initial flight trimming and then settle on a tip weight amount that you are satisfied with. Don't worry about your high wing planform, just start with the same amount of weight as you would on any model of similar size and weight. If part of this concern is keeping your wings level in flight, you'll want to be trimming that with your leadout guide distance relative to the bottom of your wing. On the PBY I made my leadout guide adjustable both laterally and vertically. You can't quite tell it in these photos but my horizontal leadout guide "holder" or "bracket" is a separate piece that is slotted vertically and can be moved in or out of the wing. It can be adjusted vertically by simply loosening the two 4-40 bolts showing above the horizontal slider slot.

 2) As far as your leadout length as shown on your plans, I would simply disregard that detail. Make your leadouts as you normally would, extending out through the leadout guide at the wingtip. y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 07:57:24 PM »
I have some models with no wingtip at all, and some with maybe an ounce or two, and these are large models. The biggest factor I see is getting the right amount of line rake so that you have enough tension, but not so much it pulls you over.

I use normal music wire to make leadout guides and have not had any problems with wear or kinking.

This is the leadout guide on one of my practice models made from music wire, with more time you can make this look a lot better. It can be removed with the two screws.

the open side allows the flying line to be inserted thru the leadout guide with a simple 90 degree twist without hurting the flying lines. The leadouts on the model are short and the actual flying lines attach at the fuselage and then go thru the leadout guide.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Trostle

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 07:58:33 PM »
I do not claim to be an expert on tip weights for CL scale models, but I do have some experience with these things.

Jim Fruit had some useful suggestions.

Of course, the amount of tip weight depends to some degree on the size of the model.  One thing to keep in mind, it is better to have too much tip weight than not enough.  You do not need to trim a scale model for flying like a stunt ship unless you are opting for some of the maneuvers called out as options appropriate for your model.  (Then, a tip weight box might be useful, but still, start with what might be thought of as more than really necessary.)  If you are flying what could be considered a "medium size" scale model like around 3 to 4 pounds (like a stunt ship though with a higher wing loading) use at least 1.5 oz. or even 2 oz. With a multi-engine model in this size, I would suggest another ounce or so to compensate when say the inboard engine(s) quit before the outboard engines.  The weight will help keep the model out on the lines.

For these 1/2A multi-engine scale things (36 to 45" span, up to 2 pounds) that some are having fun with, I use an ounce or more.  On the Tu 195 (four Norvell .061's) with a span of 58" and a weight of 64 oz, I used more than 2 oz. in the outboard tip with no adverse flying experience, at least from the tip weight.

For larger models and heavier models, more tip weight would be recommended.  What you are looking for is that the outboard tip should be noticeably heavier when you pick up the model with the lines attached.

One of your questions sounds like you are planning to run your control lines though the line guide to somehow connect to your bellcrank or to short leadouts already connected to the bellcrank.   I would recommend that you not do that.  Instead, use some removable leadouts, as has already been suggested.  The relative small diameter control lines that you will probably use (compared to "normal" leadout cables or solids) do not wear well when going through the guide and could result in a very surprising failure.  (It might work for several flights, but there is no reason to have that risk.)  Leadouts and the leadout guide can be removed for static judging and their appearance for the flight demonstration should not be a matter of downgrade for most contests.

Keith


Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 12:21:08 PM »
Thanks for all the excellent advice guys. I will make some kind of removable & adjustable line guide for the Mulligan and also make up a set of removeable lead out extenders from solid wire that will eliminate having to thread the flying wires through the guide.
Just when you think you're getting ahead in the rat race.....you find the rats just get faster! MAAC 13120L

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 02:42:46 PM »


 an other thought is if u plan on using around 2 oz of tip weight is to put 1 1/2 oz permently in the wing and then u can build a smaller weight box to work with the extra weight u use
rad racer

Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: Two Questions For The Experts
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2014, 02:47:46 PM »

 an other thought is if u plan on using around 2 oz of tip weight is to put 1 1/2 oz permently in the wing and then u can build a smaller weight box to work with the extra weight u use

Thanks Bob. That's basically what I do with stunters.
Just when you think you're getting ahead in the rat race.....you find the rats just get faster! MAAC 13120L


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